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Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’
(www.nbcnews.com)
this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2024
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politics
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The idea that not voting is some form of protest that has material consequences for the ruling class is ahistorical. It took centuries of struggle to attain universal suffrage. The people in power are perfectly happy to have only a small fraction of the demos exerting any political power at all; in fact this is how most civilizations have functioned for the past few thousand years.
Know what else is ahistorical? The idea that genocide = genocide = genocide, and that there aren't levels to this.
These people don't know or care about history.
If genocide is wrong, then genocide is wrong, no matter what the level.
Say genocide A was 100 million and genocide B was 500 million. You can save A, B, or neither. Which do you pick?
Hint: there's only one right answer.
The trolley problem is bullshit. You're using bullshit to rationalise accepting the deaths of innocent people.
The trolley problem - specifically the version where you must push one fat guy to save five others - requires a Descartesian 'Evil demon' to perfectly produce the reality of, or appearance of, a contrived situation wherein you are forced to be responsible for the murderous actions of another.
This situation explicitly creates an either/or situation, as if the only way to save people in America is to let brown people in another country die.
Source: medium
I am not, in reality, forced to be complicit in a political system where it has been decided that we must murder some of the innocent in order to protect more of the innocent. Anyone trying to force me to think that way is either malicious or deluded, and at the very least believes in a shit thought experiment which has nothing to do with real-life moral decisions.
Hint: there is only one right answer, and that is you agree that killing innocent people is wrong, so do not support killing innocent people. That's how morality works. Or do you need a trolley to come towards you and your family while you are all strapped to the tracks before you realise it?
Your lack of choosing the lesser poison for million is, indeed, complicity in of itself whether you like it or not. Patting yourself on the back as you usher in Trump when you could've had Harris — who is obviously in every single way better on Gaza than Trump — is perhaps the most illogical thing I have ever seen.
Here's how logic works:
If killing is wrong, then don't kill.
Can America please stop enabling the killing. Thanks.
Less killing is better than more killing.
Attempted ceasefire is better than undermining said ceasefire.
More amicability better than less amicability.
Less Ukrainians die vs more Ukrainians die.
Comparative logic.
You seem to be under the impression that your not voting changes the binary outcome.
This pyrrhic victory neglects to recognize that either Trump or Harris will be elected. And there is no circumstance that Trump is better than Harris. Not on women's rights. Not on climate change. Not on Ukraine. And not on Gaza.
Whether you like it or not, it's Harris or Trump. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change this fact.
So both the moral and pragmatic solution is to choose the lesser evil that gives the highest odds to improve all these groups. Which is Harris. Factually.
Me voting wouldn't change the outcome either, considering I can't.
Is killing wrong?
Yes, killing wrong.
Killing more people with less chance to kill fewer people more wrong.
Again, dichotomous choice. Easiest choice to make, really.
If killing is wrong, then voting to kill some rather than more is still wrong.
I request better options.
Correction: it is less wrong.
Standing by and letting someone kill more when your action could've resulted in less makes you as culpable in the killing as Biden and Harris themselves.
We're standing by to let killing happen right now. I'm the one saying that's unacceptable.
You can't vote so you're irrelevant but still, no, the only agency I'm privileged to have is my vote. Doing nothing means more die. Voting Harris means less die. Simple.
You are complicit by living in the US and paying taxes which fund military aid to Israel. Not voting does not absolve you. And in the case of this election, it makes you slightly more complicit because one of the war criminals who is running is slightly worse than the other.
Do you know what? I'll make an international move across the ocean just to accommodate you.
Everyone in the US is complicit. Everyone in NATO member countries is complicit. Everyone not fighting to overthrow their imperialist government is complicit. Again, not the point.
Nobody is "accepting the deaths", they are acknowledging the reality of the situation that significantly more people will die through inaction than action.
No one is saying "Vote and then wash your hands of it." Genocide is wrong so you need to do everything you can to prevent it. One of those things is vote, but it is not the only thing. You vote, and you continue to pressure the government to stop assisting in genocide.
Okay, but I can't.
So you encourage other people not to and pretend to be helping while in reality making things worse.
I say that killing people is wrong. If that's not acceptable to you, that's fine. I clearly live in a world where killing innocent people is seen as convenient.
Not what I said at all, but thank you for making it clear that you aren't interested in actually having a conversation because you don't bother to listen to what other people say. You just assume the other person said something you can disagree with.
Great conversational skills. Good bye.
So you're not actively trying to convince people not to vote for Harris?
If saying that killing innocent people is wrong convinces people to not vote for Harris, then Harris is probably not a very good candidate.
I'm actively trying to convince people to find a way to not kill innocent people. I hate the fact that this is happening, and it makes me want to die.
You are going into threads about Harris saying "but killing innocent people is wrong."
"I'm not saying don't vote for Harris, I am just inserting the suggestion into conversations about Harris, then claiming you came to that conclusion on your own."
For someone who claims to have strong convictions you sure have a hard time actually standing up for and defending what you are saying. Any pushback and it quickly becomes wishy washy bullshit.
I'm saying that killing people is wrong. If you showed me Harris had committed to holding Israel accountable and creating a ceasefire, I would be a big fan. It's not hard to be better than Trump or the Republican party, they're odious.
You can't blame me for my perception that the Democratic party is aiding Israel by sending them weapons. You can blame me for caring about the lives of innocent people, though.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/25/politics/harris-netanyahu-israel-hamas-ceasefire/index.html
Aahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... I'm sorry, ahem. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I laughed my ass off at this, too.
Absolutely. So you admit there are levels.
Actually it took centuries of people revolting and overthrowing old systems of government, not them kowtowing to party 1 and party 1a.
Ok so how does not voting help with this?