this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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Summary

Japan’s English proficiency ranking dropped to 92nd out of 116 countries, the lowest ever recorded.

The decline is attributed to stagnant English proficiency among young people, particularly due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Netherlands ranked first, followed by European countries, while the Philippines and Malaysia ranked 22nd and 26th, respectively.

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[–] Gork@lemm.ee 36 points 1 day ago (21 children)

It is a tricky language. Almost nothing in common with Indo-European languages except loan words. Completely different grammatical structure. Three different writing scripts.

At least the pronunciation isn't too bad coming from English as all the usual sounds are represented within our phonology. Compared to Spanish rolling R's, Russian and Arabic consonant clusters, Chinese tonality, and other difficult to pronounce languages.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 21 points 1 day ago (20 children)

as all the usual sounds are represented within our phonology

Is what you'd think, but nope. Their r, sh, j, ch and w and u sounds are slightly different from English (enough so that some languages have the English version and the Japanese version as independent sounds), the lone n consonant has a pronunciation not existent in English, and Japanese has a tone system but it's simple enough a foreigner can get by without knowing it. That is to say, Japanese pronunciation is very different from English and decently hard to master, but if you just pronounce it like you would English (without stress of course, absolutely don't add stress) you shouldn't have a problem getting your point across.

Russian and Arabic consonant clusters

Wait Arabic consonant clusters? If anything Arabic has less consonant clusters than English. As a native Arabic speaker what I would think is a problem for English natives is the consonants themselves, because we have a lot of them and many don't exist in English.

[–] Gsus4@mander.xyz 2 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Thanks for that.

Japanese has a tone system but it’s simple enough a foreigner can get by without knowing it

Isn't this just learning each word's tonic syllable? Or if you mean the flow of a sentence, the general waving tone structure like in Spanish or French?

[–] loppy@fedia.io 2 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

You are correct (for standard Japanese 標準語 hyoujungo; other dialects can be quite different). NoneOfUrBusiness's response is not a great take. Every word has an accented syllable or no accent at all (and it really is based on syllables, not mora). The accent is realized as a relatively sudden drop in pitch after the accented syllable with no (necessary) change in length or loudness. The drop can complete within the next syllable or after. Usually at the beginning of an utterance you start low, climb up in pitch to a certain point, and then either hit an accent and drop suddenly or gradually drop across a longer period of time if there's no accent.

The precise pitch does not matter, and it's definitely possible to have two accents close together resulting in a high-mid-low kind of pitch pattern.

Things are also complicated by the fact that Japanese likes devoicing certain syllables. Devoiced syllables can still be accented even though they can't carry pitch in the same way as voiced syllables.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

(and it really is based on syllables, not mora)

It's not though? Pitch can and does change (either rise or drop) mid-syllable no?

[–] loppy@fedia.io 2 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Pitch does, but accent placement counts mora but only assigns to syllables. For example, if an accent pattern will put an accent mid-syllable, the accent will move further back to the beginning of the syllable. This is also why accents only occur on the first mora of a long vowel. You can also see this in action in accent placement for compound nouns.

Another good thing to know is that adjacent vowels within the same morpheme (typically one kanji) are part of the same syllable. So 帰る is an accented verb, so the accent goes one mora back from the end like with all accented verbs. But this would put the accent on the え in かえる, and かえ is one syllable here, so in fact the か gets the accent.

Edit: I was looking over my main source[*] for this, and was reminded of one really good example of the role of syllables in accent assignment: genitive の. Nouns can lose their accent if followed by の, and when this occurs is exactly when (1) the noun is at least bisyllabic, and (2) the noun's accent is on the final syllable. Thus monosyllabic 本 (ほ\ん) stays accented ほ\んの, but bisyllabic 日本 (にほ\ん) becomes unaccented にほんの, and 男 (おとこ\) becomes unaccented おとこの.

[*] The Handbook of Japanese Linguistics (1999), edited by Natsuko Tsujimura, published by Blackwell Publishers, Ltd.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

TIL. I apparently picked it up naturally but I feel for people who have to actually learn this.

[–] loppy@fedia.io 1 points 1 hour ago

Uhhh... ok dude. I really doubt anyone "has to" learn this, as long as they learn to hear pitch accent I'm sure anyone can pick it up "naturally". I spend my time learning this sort of stuff because it's cool and interesting.

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