"The west" as a whole does not have a right to defend itself. "The west" is not a nation. Considering it one has white supremacist vibes, I'm sure from your other posts that you don't intend them, but the implications are there.

You have been lied to about Yugoslavia. In fact, the bombing of Yugoslavia would have been one of the atrocities I brought up, considering the 500 civilian deaths and 6000 civilian wounded that resulted from it. At the very least, while there may have been a genocide going on there, NATO's goals were not to stop it. It was an excuse to enforce further western hegemony over the region. I Unfortunately I am not prepared with sources on that issue so I hope someone else in this thread will come through with some for you. I always forget to bookmark sources even though I know I'll need them later. You'll just hopefully trust me that I have read stuff about this before. I just forgot to save it.

Lastly, its stated goals mean nothing to me when they supported the invasion of Afghanistan (as just one example). Was that a defensive war?

[–] kristina@hexbear.net 2 points 1 year ago

They really are a step away from reciting the 14 words

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

“The west” as a whole does not have a right to defend itself. “The west” is not a nation. Considering it one has white supremacist vibes, I’m sure from your other posts that you don’t intend them, but the implications are there.

We have the collective right to defend ourselves. Individually any one European nation would be hard pressed to defend against Russia on its own. I don't see how self defense gives off white supremacy vibes. NATO existing as a defensive alliance doesn't prevent anyone else from doing the same thing.

Bookmarking stuff can get quickly out of hand. If you find it later post it here I guess. I think we are going to have agree to disagree. There was genocide happening in Yugoslavia. NATO intervened to stop it. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Lastly, its stated goals mean nothing to me when they supported the invasion of Afghanistan (as just one example). Was that a defensive war?

The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.

[–] sharedburdens@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was hardly to prevent a genocide unless you believe the US suddenly started caring about Muslim life - and then went on to maraud across the middle east leaving a trail of bodies in its wake.

There's documented accounts of displaced Romani having to pretend to be Kosavar Albanians because there was zero humanitarian aid available for people not of the chosen ethnic group of the day.

One of the most interesting facets of the NATO air campaign is how they managed to demolish all the state owned factories and infrastructure, but leave the ones owned by westerners.

There's also another issue with what NATO did to Serbia - Kosovo voted to unilaterally secede. I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?

The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.

The US was their first backers, getting 9/11'd was just blowback for shitty decisions made decades ago, and murdering a bunch of Afghanis and Iraqis was hardly defensive. We totally had troops guarding poppy fields and oil derricks for like 2 decades after as a part of that "defensive" operation.

[–] silent_water@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago

I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?

separatist regions of Ukraine? Haiti? Northern Ireland? there's so many good options to choose from

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was hardly to prevent a genocide NATO values human life, including muslim people. I won't deny conservatives in western countries tend to be anti-muslim. I'm going to evaluate Yugoslavia on it's own context and not based on wars in the Middle East.

One of the most interesting facets of the NATO air campaign is how they managed to demolish all the state owned factories and infrastructure, but leave the ones owned by westerners.

This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

There’s also another issue with what NATO did to Serbia - Kosovo voted to unilaterally secede. I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?

Oh, if you mean the Donbas region, those elections were a sham. It's best not to believe Russian propaganda.

The US was their first backers, getting 9/11’d was just blowback for shitty decisions made decades ago, and murdering a bunch of Afghanis and Iraqis was hardly defensive. We totally had troops guarding poppy fields and oil derricks for like 2 decades after as a part of that “defensive” operation.

We were attacked by state sponsored terror. The war in Afghanistan was defensive. Iraq not so much, like there were never weapons of mass destruction.

[–] sharedburdens@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

quoting Parenti here:

The confederation of Trade Unions of Serbia produced a list of 164 factories destroyed by the bombings, all of them were state owned. Not a single foreign-owned firm was targeted.

What's really wild is how the geniuses at NATO managed to drop 5 JDAMs on the chinese embassy in belgrade,"why does nobody like us" shocked-pikachu

our glorious free democratic elections

their sham elections

You're a fucking parody lmao

We were attacked by state sponsored terror.

Literally all of Americas victims can say the exact same thing

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

One of us is definitely a parody, but it's not me lol.

[–] sharedburdens@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Here's a handy guide for you explaining your views in the future: us-foreign-policy

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago

Lol

[–] silent_water@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.

9/11 was funded and perpetrated by Saudi Arabia, a US ally that has bragged about the fact on twitter. we didn't go after them, in fact we've continued to supply them with money and arms, especially as they conduct a genocide against Yemen.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, we should stop buddying with a monarchy for their oil. We need to invest in renewables, modern nuclear fission plants, and nuclear fusion as quickly as possible.