A UK Member of Parliament recently suggested that there should be a Government minister for men which would presumably do similar things to the existsing minister for Women.
This has thrown up a series of heated discussions on social media about whether this is part of the 'backlash' against feminsm, or whether there is a legitimate need for wider support of men's issues.
As a man who believes that there are legitimate issues disproportionately affecting men which should be addressed, what I really want help in understanding is the opinion that men don't need any targetted support.
I don't want to start a big argument, but I do want to understand this perspective, because I have struggled to understand it before and I don't like feeling like I'm missing something.
The official position is Minister for Women and Equalities.
And the easy answer to this Tory troll is that (middle-class, white) men already dominate political, economic and social life. Everything is filtered through the eyes of people like them, they don't need a special platform to get their viewpoint across.
But, this is a lot like March 8th (International Women's Day) being full of plaintive cries of "why isn't there an International Men's Day?". There is an International Men's Day and it is a very good thing. It makes sense in a way that "why isn't there a white history month?" does not.
There are many points of similarity and difference between the various forms of prejudice. And one of the things that makes sexism unique is that prejudice against women inevitably creates a mirror prejudice about (if not intentionally against) men. If being feminine means having emotions other than rage, men are allowed to experience only rage. If being feminine means caring for others, men are not allowed to care for (or about) others.
While there are certainly forms of feminism which are anti-men (most notably the transphobic strain currently getting more attention than it deserves), feminism is fundamentally as important for men as it is for women and the issues facing men exist precisely because of the history of subjugating women. Women's rights are not in tension with men's rights (unless you mean the demands of damaged and damaging men who insist that they should have the right to rape women and keep one at home as a sex doll, housekeeper, incubator and child minder).
This article is not perfect but it does make the broader point well: If I Admit That 'Hating Men' Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?:
Thanks for your comment, it's certainly one of the better considered ones in this thread!
How do we distinguish between legitimate grievances that men may have and the more reactionary/politically divisive. Whenever I hear the above argument, it strikes me as dismissive of legitimate issues and it feels dismissive of my experiences.
In order to affect real change, do we not need to move past dismissing the problems raised by one gender? Isn't it more likely that we change people's behaviour by acceptance of their viewpoint rather than telling them they're just being difficult?
I agree with you here, but I think it's also important to take note of the fact that feminism is a fairly broad church so the idea that there is one 'feminist perspective' which cares about men too is, to my mind, undermined by the negation of the importance of men's issues I commonly see.
What legitimate issues do you think I'm being dismissive of?
I've come across a segment of society which seems to believe that men don't feel emotions in the same way as women, that they should be tough - not cry, 'be a man', 'man up'.
My belief is that a number of men in society are psychologically scarred by regressive beliefs like these and would hazard a guess that these beliefs contribute towards loneliness and suicide. I also believe that it's a big driver of things like the red pill movement.
Now you might say that this is a feminist issue, in that it's the result of outmoded gender stereotypes (which probably have a negative impact on women too), and I would broadly agree with you. But until we allow men to come out and say "I suffer too from sexism" I don't see how we can move past it.
None of the contradicts anything I said. I explicitly said it.
This is the damage wrought by patriarchy. You are not competing with women to get your case heard. It is the exact same case.
I don't believe there is a space in society for men's to talk about issues like this that affect them. I don't believe there are structures in place to attempt to address these issues.
It's certainly a problem, not least because most attempts to start something up attracts men who only want to complain about how it's all the fault of those devastatingly powerful women and everyone else gives up. But there are some surviving spaces, like the Men & Boys Coalition.
I don't know if we need a "man minister", but UK really needs men shelters to offer safe spaces for people suffering from domestic abuse. Because there are none right now. And the best way out of an abusive relationship for men today is... Suicide.
I have never heard of a feminist...
It all being part of the patriarchy is maybe true if you want to look at it in this perspective. But I am of the opinion that most of those points would not majorly improve even if feminists would have total political control for the next 10 years.
Because feminists stand up for the rights of women. Which is totally important and good. But will not automatically improve the lifes of men, because its not the aim of most feminists.
Then you haven't been paying attention. I just posted a years old article, which went viral at the time, pushing for all these things.
Toxic men do have the loudest megaphones. But you can wise up and find better things to listen to.
I mean that may well be that I havent heard of "those" feminists, altho I hear about many things feminists here (in Switzerland) push for. I read the demands of every feministic protest for example and never was there one of the points I mentioned.
I think your comment sounded like victim blaming to me. For example:
Thats why I see things like "the patriarchy" or categories like "the men" or "the feminists" very critically as it generalizes too much.
And back to the OP: I dont think that a dedicated "minister for women" can or will help in men-issues, because I don't believe the logical detour via the patriarchy makes sense. One would have to fight the misandrist laws like the army draft (here in switzerland its mandatory for men but voluntary for women) directly and not shadow-box ""the patriarchy"".
Feminists do this literally all the time.
That is so untrue that it's clear you're speaking in bad faith. The only people I know against prison rape are feminists, the 'anti feminists' are all about "lets hope he drops the soap" jokes.
It's women who have fought for equal rights in the military, not men, and they've taken frontline roles by force.
"Falsely accused men" is not the same as not convicted men. Jonny Depp admitted being physical in court, Till Lindemans case was dropped for lack of evidence, this is super normal in cases of sexual assault because unless it was filmed, evidence is a really tricky thing.
Literally every feminist advocates for all of these.