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Food served to US service men & women.
(lemmy.nz)
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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2026
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Mildly Infuriating
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not a strawman. literally every role in the military is involved in the murder of children. every. single. role.
And what about roles outside of the military? When was the last time you contributed to slavery or child exploitation with your purchases? How about your employer?
You are equating purchasing things with directly participating in the most vile military on the planet.
I hate to break it to you, but your consumption of unethical products is also direct participation in the unethical production of said products.
Consumption of products is the furthest one can be from participation in such things in many cases, or not far off.
Unlike working in a NATO military.
Honestly ridiculous how you try to equate these things.
Completely disagree. There's an important caveat: Necessary consumption of products is the furthest one can be from participation. Most of the consumption done in the western world is not necessary.
That's okay. I don't necessarily expect someone to condemn themselves.
We already know that you pretend that buying a product made by NATO is just as bad as being a torturer in Abu Ghraib.
Simply consuming things is, indeed, either the furthest one can be from relevant participation, or not far off. The fact that you keep equivocating that with going overseas to murder children simply betrays that you do not see people outside of NATO as people.
Also, you even think that consumers of meat are more at fault for producing meat than the people involved in producing meat, which is extremely silly.
Cute, especially considering that I do not live in "the western world" (i.e. the Imperial Core), and neither does most of the world whom you claim it's okay to invade. "It's just as bad to buy meat as it is to orchestrate Highways of Death", lol.
two things can be true at once.
Just wanted to make sure since people in this thread seem to be taking a holier-than-thou stance. As above:
If we're talking about more than just service members who directly engage in combat and are including non-combat roles (cook, mail clerk), then the answer has to be yes.
the cook is just as guilty as the sniper, yes. i agree.
Which makes you also as guilty as the cook. Unless, of course, you live off the grid, homestead, and are entirely self-sufficient.
my industry - firefighting and software engineering for healthcare is, particularly quite different than being a part of an organization that has a monopoly on violence. additionally, that same org has me living under capitalism, from birth. so try again with your reductio.
the adults who volunteer to join that violent organization are certainly much more guilty than others who choose not to join.
your attempt at this false equivalency is just trollish and serves to show exactly how much you enjoy the taste of uncle sam’s boot.
And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military? You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice? You as a firefighter are quite literally in the business of protecting the property of capitalists. You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military. I'm not going to assume you're an American, but needless to say your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.
That doesn't even get into your consumption habits. Do you consume animals products? How about products that are constructed with exploited labor, even slaves? Child labor? How about the products you consume that are irresponsibly produced from an environmental perspective?
But, hey, I'm glad you're able to live with the choices you've made. We all must. It's just a shame that you've deluded yourself into thinking you're somehow more innocent than others based on those same flawed choices.
They are contributing to military tasks the goal of which is subjugation of non-white people. Programming avionics so that planes can bomb Iran, fighting fires on carriers, etc. is unambiguously evil.
If we exclude doing such things for NATO military and espionage organisations, then it almost always is, yes.
Lol no. If you can't see the difference between stopping fires from killing civilians or destroying buildings/non-military equipment, and directly contributing to things like subjugating Iran or defending invaders of Iraq and Iran from retaliation, you need to go to primary school or something.
How so?
This is probably the closest you have made to a compelling point. However, in this case you would have to attack the people involved in meat production first, rather than people who merely consume those products.
Same goes for the other points in that paragraph.
Also, you do have to contend with the fact that those people were enslaved because of NATO's military.
In the sense that any task done in the military is contributing to a military goal, sure. I'll remind the Goodwill employee that they're contributing to military goals the next time I'm shopping there. (Whether you're aware of it or not, Goodwill runs a lot of the logistics operations for at least RTC Great Lakes.) By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the "subjugation of non-white people." There are measures that can be taken to reduce one's problematic footprints, though. I just find that most people prefer to cast stones at others instead.
Firefighters are compelled to protect the private property of the capitalist class. I'm failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not. Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.
Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it's a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America's most backwards sectors of the economy. It's a system where people are financially ruined when they're the most vulnerable or even denied treatment for the purpose of enriching the healthcare sector's capitalist class.
Why would I have to attack the meat producers first? Few meat producers are producing meat for the sake of producing meat. They produce meat because there's a demand for it. It's simple really: no one wants meat, no one produces meat. If you mean to say that most people lack the moral fiber to make ethical decisions when there's an unethical choice they enjoy, then I agree. We collectively suck when it comes to being responsible individuals. Likewise with products produced using child labor and such. In some instances, all someone can afford is unethically produced products. Most people don't even bother to put in the effort, though. Sacrifices are hard, and no one wants to make them. It's an unfortunate reality.
No. I’m compelled, by my own judgment and heart (as what i do is volunteer), to save lives and then protect property.
also, a working class homeowner is not part of the capitalist class. they are part of the exploited class.
a business owner, sure. know what my first priority is? searching for and removing the workers first.
you have some reading to do, buddy. i might suggest “The Jungle” first.
Nice to meet a fellow volunteer on here. Of course, I also volunteer for the people. It is undeniably true that part of our responsibility is also the protection of private capital, though. That's all I was really making a point about.
Nowhere near to the same degree, however. Your attempts to equate these things is extention silly.
Do you also fail to see how the USian soldiers are responsible for, for example, the tortures at Abu Ghraib? I guess you don't see that as any different from being a cashier in the US in terms of awfulness.
However, non-capitalist societies of today are not responsible for the colonial subjugation of the Global South. Not sure why you are ripping them into this.
Ok? Do they do anything comparable to bombing schoolchildren in Iran? What would be the good outcome of none of those people participating in the USian healthcare system?
The fact that you blame consumers of meat and the like - and not the producers, i.e. the people actually doing the bad thing - for the production of meat and similar things is also very silly.
Also, do you agree that the rest of the world has a moral right to kill NATO's ss troopers, or do you think it would be great if I kidnapped, tortured and killed your family for money?
So we agree that this is a matter of degree rather than kind. As for the degree of difference, I fail to see much of one between the non-combatant service member and, say, the average US citizen who pays no mind to how their lifestyle and choices impact the world.
When you speak of the US military, you are speaking of an institution. It is an institution that you and I likely share similar grievances about. The difference is that I don't attribute moral condemnation on every person who just so happens to be in the military. Likewise with every person who just so happens to work for Amazon, Google, Walmart, etc. The cook serving on a military base is about as responsible for an atrocity that occurs in the middle east as you are responsible for whatever negative outcomes are associated with the way you earn and spend your money.
Are you trying to ask what would be the good outcome of a massive labor strike in the US healthcare industry? Quite a lot of good could come from that. But, yes, profiting off the illness of children and sending their families into financial ruin is, once the scale is put into play, in my opinion, about as morally problematic as dropping bombs on children.
I get the impression you're once again trying to excuse yourself of moral blame by saying the producers of animal products are significantly worse than the consumers. Much of the labor in animal "processing" facilities in the US comes from undocumented immigrants. Much of foreign meat comes from impoverished laborers or even slaves. Consumers of such products are directly funding those atrocities. And, yes, that also makes voters responsible for the atrocities that are perpetuated by their democratically elected governments.
And no, I don't believe you have a moral right to be a terrorist.
This whole time you have been arguing, at best, that the degree doesn't matter (though, you did say once that consuming meat is worse than production, despite the fact that it's the production that is the problem), and that being a nurse in the private healthcare system in the US is exactly as bad as sniping children in Iraq.
One directly contributes to the goals of the most vile military in the world and can't be substituted by civilians, the other is usually as far removed from contributing to those goals as possible (with the consideration that people in NATO are generally forced to take part in NATO's economy, but are not forced to be in the military taken into account).
Sure. Some actually do sabotage of the military, like Chelsea Manning.
The vast majority don't.
Lol no. A military cook directly makes sure that the murderers and torturers do not go hungry and are in a perfect condition to murder and torture.
No. I asked what would be the good outcome of there being no healthcare workers in the US. The soldiers striking was never in the picture.
The benefits of there being no military in the US are clear and lack cons. The benefits of there being no healthcare workers in the US are dubious.
The actual harm in this situation is done to the animals from whom the meat is made. This is done by the producers, rather than by the consumers. Not sure why you think that it's the other way around.
So, you agree, then, that becoming a USian terrorist for money is inexcusable, and that the rest of the world is in the right to defend itself from them however it sees fit?
There is a massive difference between cooking meals for schoolchildren and making sure that military personnel can function to achieve their objectives of subjugating non-white people.
For the average person in either role, both are just a job. You just happen to prefer one to another, personally. Further, public education is one of the most fascist institutions in democratic countries. Unless, of course, you somehow think it isn't fascist for the state to decide the curriculum that every child is forced to learn, segregate children based on age, and coerce them into obeying the whims of whatever state employee happens to be their teacher.
We are not talking about their own perception of what they do.
What is word is that you do not prefer cooking meals for schoolchildren to making sure NATO's occasions, genocides and the like are completed.
Ah yes, education. What horror. Very comparable to killing children overseas. /s
Obeying their whims, rather than actual instructions - yes. And such teachers are, indeed, bad and should be punished. Do you think otherwise?
I do think the perception matters in these instances. Someone who is killing in combat may have the perception of protecting freedom and democracy, but they are still pulling the trigger. A mail clerk, by contrast, is just sorting mail. A nurse is just treating a patient. The big-picture contributions may never occur to the individual, be it aiding an unjust military operation or an unjust private industry.
It's a testament to the success of the propaganda surrounding public schools that you have conflated the institution of public education with education simpliciter. Education needn't occur in an authoritarian classroom. As for the difference between whims and instructions, they're effectively the same. Teachers set the classroom rules. We have children requesting to use the restroom, even being denied such a "privilege." Who are you allowed to talk to and when? The teacher decides. Who can you sit next to? The teacher decides. Want to associate with someone in a different grade? Not permitted. Hungry? You can eat at the appointed time and no other. Etc. We somehow have accepted that school children ought to be treated like prisoners rather than free members of our society.
Haha. No, the severity of the tortures, the killings and the like do not depend on if the shutzstaffel thugs think those are good things.
As somebody who studies by themselves every day, I didn't. That's just how effective education is done at scale.
They aren't. The range of things that a teacher can demand can and is bounded.
This is an understandable complaint.
These complaints are silly. Do you think these are 'whims'?
In every place where I studied, there were no such limitations, with some even studying together with children from other grades in the same classrooms.
Seems like a very personally-charged tangent, but ok.