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[-] tal@lemmy.today 5 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

Hmm. That's an interesting one.

In general, I'd say that technological advancement has been desirable. If something isn't desirable, we'll generally just not use it.

Hmm.

I do get people in this thread saying more-or-less some variant on "fossil fuels", because while they've obviously had enormous benefits to humanity, and it's hard to think of something else that has had a comparable positive impact, they're also going to probably have long-standing negative consequences that we cannot trivially overcome. It's hard to think of many things that will have a comparable negative impact.

On the other hand, in 2026, because we've been working on addressing the drawbacks of fossil fuel use recently, I think maybe those negatives carry excessive weight in people's minds. It's also really hard for me to think of many things that have had as positive an effect. It would have been harder and slower for us to have gotten where we are without use of fossil fuels. Maybe even impossible. My own life would almost certainly have been less-pleasant.

thinks more

I think that I'd probably have to pick one of the few technologies that I think could represent an existential threat to humanity. Those have obviously not actually yet given birth to such an event; even the fact that I am writing this means that they have not, and maybe they never will. Maybe the great negative that they represent will forever remain inchoate. But...I think that the threat will likely always be there. At least as of 2026, I don't really see a way for us to ever make the threat go away.

All of them have or have the likely potential to represent some level of great good to humanity. But...I think that if the potential bad that they represent is ever realized, that they will have clearly been a net bad.

Because I don't actually know which, if any of them, would represent such a future bad, it's hard for me to rank them.

Nuclear weapons

In 2026, nuclear weapons, as they have been implemented, probably do not represent an existential threat to humanity. Even if a full-scale nuclear war were to occur and all existing stockpiles of nuclear weapons were to be expended, humanity should still endure. It would be a terrible, horrible event. It would cause civilizations to collapse, death and destruction on a level untold in human history. Humanity after would view the time before as a lost golden age for a long time. But there would be survivors, and eventually, slowly, painfully, humanity could rebuild.

But I think that we probably could build arsenals large enough to end humanity in a nuclear holocaust, and I think that probably no weapons technology to exist in the past has posed a comparable threat. Yes, sure, theoretically humanity could have some sort of death cult that manages to slit everyone else's threat with stone knives, then collectively cut their own, but I think that there, I'd have to credit the death cult, not the weapons technology.

We have limited the rate of spread of nuclear weapons, but we have not stopped their proliferation, and I am not sure that we can. There may come a day when they lead to a world in a situation that is on the brink of a bonfire, and someone strikes a match, and it is nuclear weapons that create a situation that is so on-the-brink that we immolate ourselves without being able to draw back.

There have been benefits. Perhaps the benefits are the least-obvious of the technologies that I list here. They are generally considered to be a factor in the Long Peace, an unprecedented period without war between the major powers. Perhaps that would not have been achieved without humanity developing nuclear weapons; it's hard to know.

I am also not certain that nuclear weapons do pose a likely existential threat. I think that there are many incentives to build nuclear weapons, and that nuclear non-proliferation attempts of the sort that we have tried in the past may fail. We may ultimately wind up with a world where there are many countries involved in a nuclear arms race, and where many countries face incentives to move us closer to a collapse-of-civilization scenario. But it may be that they are not incentivized to build arsenals that are collectively sufficiently large to pose an existential threat to humanity.

This is also the only technology that I'll list that does not involve some sort of self-replication. I think that self-replication is likely one of the most-important aspects of a technology that poses an existential threat to humanity. It's that property that gives it such potential to create scenarios that spiral out-of-control.

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[-] tal@lemmy.today 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

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Genetically-engineered organisms

We can, and have, genetically-engineered self-replicating organisms, albeit only in the limited sense of modifying that which exists, not in simply creating things from scratch.

It seems likely that our ability to create and manipulate life will only increase in the future. There are countless potential benefits, and so we have tremendous incentive to explore and expand our knowledge of and use of such technology.

But it also seems certain that we could construct an organism---be intentionally or unintentionally---that is capable of wiping out humanity.

It's hard for me to guess how high the the risk here is. There have been many deadly forms of life that Mother Nature has produced. Many of those have annihilated other species. A very few have created extinction events, rapid, mass die-offs of many of the species on Earth. We ourselves perhaps represent one of such notable killers in the history of life, though presently are greatly outmatched by things like blue-green algae.

But...whether it is some kind of pathogen, an unintentional mutation in something that we create, or similar, it seems likely that we could create something that would end humanity. Mother Nature has tried many forms of life over the eons. Her most potent tools are natural selection, with the later development of sexual reproduction greatly increasing the rate at which change could propagate.

When we developed artificial selection, we got the ability to much-more-rapidly reshape life. Genetic engineering has allowed us to jump forward again, much more rapidly.

I do not know how widely-available genetic engineering capabilities will spread among humanity. It may be that, with the advance of technology and software, it will become as viable for any given human to create dramatically new forms of life in the future as it is to print a document on paper today. That seems likely to create an unstable situation.

I think that often, the risks of biological warfare are overstated. The military use of biological weapons has been limited; they are difficult to control, and generally pose risks to their wielders.

In general, where biowarfare has been pursued, things like anthrax have been of more interest, where the biological weapon acts more like a chemical weapon, and does not really lend itself to rapid, uncontrolled replication. This is, no doubt, a dangerous weapon, but governments have generally not shown a tremendous military interest in engineering pandemics.

Disease certainly has been used in warfare. Most-recently, Japan made some use of disease in World War II in China, and considered, near the end of the war, doing so against the US in Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night. This would not have posed an existential threat, but it does show that the will can exist, and one might imagine genetic engineering creating biological weapons that do spread.

But, in general, I think that it is less-likely that countries would intentionally produce organisms with existential threat potential to humanity as military technology, and more-likely that an existential risk would come from some sort of non-state actor who can leverage spreading access to genetic engineering, or to some kind of engineered organism intended for some civilian application that spins out of control.

In 2026, we probably have the ability to create terrible pandemics. We could, probably, say take pathogens like smallpox and engineer variants to defeat vaccines. I have not looked deeply into the kind of harm that someone could manage with existing technology. I think that given that our ancestors fought for survival against billions of years of all kinds of life forms, it probably wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to kill humanity, given present-day technology, and that gives me some reassurance about our ability to deal with an accidental, self-replicating pathogen. But if one considers how devastating multiple concurrent threats can be to life, I am not certain that someone with the will and current technology could not create incredibly dangerous concurrent pandemics. Consider how we make use of combination antibiotics as a weapon against against pathogens, because it is much harder for a strain of pathogens to simultaneously develop immunity to multiple antibiotics; one that develops immunity to one may be killed by another antibiotic before it can spread. Or, in the case of humanity, what happened to New World humans when the Columbian exchange occurred, where many diseases struck a large human population at once:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange

The Columbian exchange, also known as the Columbian interchange, was the widespread transfer of plants, animals, and diseases between the New World (the Americas) in the Western Hemisphere, and the Old World (Afro-Eurasia) in the Eastern Hemisphere, from the late 15th century on. It is named after the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and is related to the European colonization and global trade following his 1492 voyage. Some of the exchanges were deliberate while others were unintended. Communicable diseases of Old World origin resulted in an 80 to 95 percent reduction in the Indigenous population of the Americas from the 15th century onwards, and their near extinction in the Caribbean.

Even if it would be hard for someone to create a single humanity-killing disease using 2026 technology, perhaps they could create a cornucopia and release them concurrently to increase their efficacy. And in the future...well, it's hard to know what we might develop the ability to create.

Genetic engineering has enormous potential benefits. Disease resistance. Greater productivity of plants and animals. The ability to create "biological factories" for any number of new, valuable things that as of yet, we do not have. We will probably not readily swear off genetic engineering, since it has such tremendous benefits. But those incentives also means that we will probably always be exposed to potential risks.

Self-replicating nanotechnology

We are not yet to the point where we can build small, self-replicating robots. But it seems likely that, sooner or later, we will be. There are such potential benefits in materials science and manufacturing that it seems hard to believe that we will collectively choose not to build such a thing.

Once we have done so, we create the potential for a gray goo scenario.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo

Gray goo (also spelled as grey goo) is a hypothetical global catastrophic scenario involving molecular nanotechnology in which out-of-control self-replicating machines consume all biomass (and perhaps also everything else) on Earth while building many more of themselves,[1][2] a scenario that has been called ecophagy.[3] The original idea assumed machines were designed to have this capability, while popularizations have assumed that machines might somehow gain this capability by accident.

Self-replicating machines of the macroscopic variety were originally described by mathematician John von Neumann, and are sometimes referred to as von Neumann machines or clanking replicators.

This bears a lot of similarities to the potential harms from genetically-engineered organisms; life as nature has created it is simply one type of self-replicating machine. We can, via modifying existing life, produce more-sophisticated and self-replicating things through genetic engineering than we can via crafting self-replicating machines from scratch. But...I think that it seems likely that over time, we will catch up when it comes to self-replicating machines, to no longer stand on Mother Nature's shoulders and billions of years of evolution. I think that most of the incentives and risks and such for self-replicating nanotechnology are similar to those of genetic engineering.

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[-] tal@lemmy.today 1 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

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Advanced Artificial Intelligence

This is not ChatGPT, not as we know it in 2026; I see some people complaining about that in this thread.

I'm talking about the kind of thing that can think more-or-less on a human level, solve problems in a general sense. Artificial General Intelligence, maybe. It's hard to draw exact lines on what constitutes a real existential threat to humanity, but I think that it's difficult to argue that we will not be able to create such a thing.

I've written a lot about this in the past, and I'm not going to repeat a lot of it here. It's a hot topic in general, these days. But some highlights:

  • AI has tremendous potential benefits, and even more so the more-advanced the forms.

    It will be very hard to prevent humanity from exploring AI. The potential returns are immense. This means that it will not be a technology easy to forswear development on.

  • Enforcement of a prohibition on development of some form of AI may be very hard

    If we chose not to develop AI or some forms of AI, it will basically amount to an arms control treaty. These have had a spotty efficacy in the past. Imagine that all countries get together, decide on some set of technological lines that must not be crossed and then develop some sort of treaty to enforce it. Basically, they'd have to agree to go to war against anyone trying to develop such a thing (and actually follow through on this). That means that at minimum, you'd need the world's major military powers onboard with such a total ban. How would you enforce it? Eliezer Yudkowsky proposed prohibitions on the development of AI datacenters, the destruction of "rogue" datacenters, where size and power usage would identify them, and that there be willingness to attack them. I'm not even sure that, setting aside the political challenges in creating such an alliance for all of humanity's future, that that would be enough. My own guess is that you could probably, given the right software, have a human-level intelligence on the sort of computer that one might put on one's desk. The development of AI will surely increase the computational efficiency. The kind of intrusive control that one would need to have to identify anyone working on such a thing on, say, a PC, even given the political will to do so, seems simply Orwellian, and possibly unworkable. Would you accept every computer on the level of a modern PC today having monitoring software on it, worldwide? That might be the kind of thing that would be necessary, if even that were enough.

    Some of the reason that nuclear weapons non-proliferation policy has been even as viable as it has been---and it is certainly not perfect---is that there are very large, unusual, and detectable installations and expertise required to manufacture nuclear weapons. My guess is that this is probably not the case for artificial intelligence.

    If you look at, say, the failures of the Washington Naval Treaty---and it's awfully hard to secretly build, say, a battleship, as it requires a lot of resources, expertise, and can only be done in very specific locations---it makes me awfully pessimistic about the viability of an "AI arms control treaty".

  • It may be very hard to counter something as intelligent or more intelligent as we are

    One of humanity's most potent assets has been our intelligence. We have had that overmatch on our side for a long, long time, against anything that we've faced. It's proven to be a very powerful weapon. But...with AI, we face the potential for being on the other side of that equation. That's one point that Yudkowsky hammers on, that we've been so marvelously effective through humanity's history because of the single advantage that we're talking about losing here.

  • It may be hard to know exactly what the lines are that constitute an existential threat to humanity.

    Even if we explicitly want to draw lines, limit our development of technology to some sort of "safe" subset, we might not be able to do so, because it's hard to understand the risks well enough to draw "safe" lines. Yudkowsky thinks that we've already crossed them. I'm more-skeptical about that, but I don't really have any sort of a more-permissive set of lines to offer up myself.

  • I don't know how to "solve" the risks, or if doing so is even practical

    Humanity has one single great advantage over an advanced artificial intelligence. It gets the first move. We can try to leverage that advantage to control artificial intelligence. We can choose to create whatever structures and rules we want to contain and control the threat. The problem is that those structures and rules have to last and work for...essentially forever. An advanced artificial intelligence itself might develop more-sophisticated forms of artificial intelligence, just as we once developed something that surpassed ourselves, and we'd have to avoid that spiraling out of control in some way dangerous to us, even via our first advanced artificial intelligence making a mistake. We'd have a hard time even understanding the kinds of things that we're trying to control. Imagine at the dawn of life, some primitive bacterium trying to bioengineer life that would never be a risk to it, even in the upcoming billions of years. That's the scale of the problem. It seems to me like a problem that cannot be solved in practical terms.

    Carl Sagan thought---and I'm not sure that he was right---that nuclear weapons posed an existential threat, but that we could "beat" them by becoming a multiplanetary species, that a nuclear war could never be so wide-spanning as to wipe out multiple planets of humanity. Maybe he was right. And I can imagine such a universe, with little-enough interchange, where maybe we could also avoid existential risks from at least an accidentally-created genetically-engineered organism; someone intentionally creating such a threat could place it multiple places ahead-of-time. But AI can potentially replicate across computer systems at the speed that information travels, the speed of light, and it seems likely that we will link up computer systems wherever we go. I think that it is likely that we will not have any such "threshold of safety", ever.

this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2026
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