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[-] jumjummy@lemmy.world -3 points 16 hours ago

There’s a stark difference in your example and the reality from November 2022. In that world the only realistic choice was between voting for Harris or Trump as president, and given those two choices, there was an absolutely objectively better choice. That is unless you have the mindset of “just tear it all down”, in which case, you reek of hypocrisy. All the harm you think Harris would have done, Trump has done and so so much more.

All that being said, I sure hope to %insert_deity_here% that Harris doesn’t run again in 2028, or if she does, she gets destroyed in the primaries.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 4 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

there was an absolutely objectively better choice.

That doesn't matter. Like I said, I do not believe in Lesser Evilism. Lesser Evilism tells us to betray our allies if we see an advantage and I don't believe that's a viable long-term strategy.

That is unless you have the mindset of “just tear it all down”, in which case, you reek of hypocrisy

Neither part of that is accurate. There is nothing hypocritical in opposing the state and opposing the state doesn't necessarily mean "just tear it all down."

Policy is determined by the balance of power between classes. Who's in charge is a secondary concern. When FDR implemented the New Deal, that could only get past the political establishment in Congress (and was only something he considered doing, as he was also from the political establishment) because the economic crisis of the Depression had weakened them, and there was a fear of collective action, even revolution. That is why the New Deal policies continued regardless of which party was in power.

Conditions shifted after things like the AFL/CIO purging communists, which weakened the power of organized labor. At that point, the ruling class was able to start destroying them through anti-union and neoliberal policies, because they couldn't fight back. Although Reagan is the face of that, the shift began under Carter and would be upheld under Clinton. It was the material conditions and the relative strength and organization of the classes which determined both the bipartisan creation of the New Deal and the bipartisan destruction of it.

When The Black Panthers started giving free breakfasts to kids, the government did everything they could to stop it, destroying the food, spreading misinformation that it was poisoned, etc. But eventually they realized that as long as children were going hungry, it wasn't going to be possible to convince or propagandize families to keep them away from free food. So the government instead stopped the Panthers by implementing its own free breakfast program. Decades later, with the Panthers no longer around, the government's free breakfasts have disappeared. Once again, it's not a question of who held office and what they wanted, but of the relative power and organization of the classes.

None of those examples required "tearing it all down," although in some cases the threat of that existed. It would be naive to pin all one's hopes on some great revolution, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing to be gained from strengthening ourselves and shifting the balance of power, while working towards a future where that threat is a little less inconceivable.

I am not against supporting cooperative elements within the state, but that is always secondary to class conflict. I'm not going to allow my positions to be defined along the lines of electoral politics, unless doing so is not toxic to the non-electoral approach. Therefore, it's not just about who's the lesser evil, but about whether endorsing someone is going to disrupt efforts at building solidarity.

[-] jumjummy@lemmy.world -1 points 6 hours ago

“I do not believe in lesser evilism” and “There is nothing hypocritical in opposing the state and opposing the state” don’t reflect reality.

Stop dancing around with this idealistic theoretical scenario. Simple question: in November 2022, who did you support for the presidential election?

This isn’t a thought experiment, or philosophical grandstanding. There were only 4 choices at that time, and all but one helped Trump.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Stop dancing around with this idealistic theoretical scenario. Simple question: in November 2022, who did you support for the presidential election?

You mean November 2024. I voted third party.

This isn’t a thought experiment, or philosophical grandstanding. There were only 4 choices at that time, and all but one helped Trump.

"Helped?" If I had been dead, or if I had never been born, Trump would have received the same number of votes. My vote in no way "helped" Trump. If not voting for Trump "helped" him, then my vote also "helped" Harris by the same logic.

You're assuming that my default state is voting Democrat, as if they are somehow entitled to my vote. That is simply not true.

Ultimately, you're just trying to assert Lesser Evilism in a roundabout way, by refusing to acknowledge or discuss it. You can't allow the discussion to examine it because you can't actually defend it under scrutiny. That's why you talk about "philosophical grandstanding."

[-] jumjummy@lemmy.world -1 points 5 hours ago

Yes, 2024, my mistake. It does feel like so much longer than that.

As I suspected. Voting third party in the general election in November just helped Trump win. Hopefully that third party vote wasn’t for Jill “Russian plant” Stein.

Come the general election, if your default state wasn’t voting for the Democrat, you helped the Republicans win. May as well not voted.

Primary for the most progressive candidate you want, but once the reality of the general election comes, there’s only one clear choice.

I’m done trying to reason with you here. Have a good day.

[-] dubs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 hours ago

As I suspected. Voting third party in the general election in November just helped Trump win.

Well, no, that's not true at all. Of course Harris being pro-genocide helped Trump win, but I don't expect that you'll be bringing that up anytime soon.

Hopefully that third party vote wasn’t for Jill “Russian plant” Stein.

I love how Libs repeat things that are clearly unfounded, but also openly ignore acurate data when it paints their own party in a bad light.

Primary for the most progressive candidate you want, but once the reality of the general election comes, there’s only one clear choice.

Agreed. Anti-genocide was the only clear choice, but both Democrats and Republicans decided that the lives of people in other countries weren't worth worrying about, if they couldn't go back to brunch.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

You never began trying to reason with me here but ok. You just asserted your position without backing it up in any way and completely ignoring my criticism.

this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2026
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