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What does "stateless" exactly mean in the context of communism? (lemm.ee)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

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(Reposted in this community cuz I didn't get any responses in the original community that I posted this under)

This is how I understand the communist utopia: Workers seize means of production. Means of production thus, start working for the proletariat masses rather than the bourgeoisie class. Thus, technological progress stops being stifled and flourishes. Humanity achieves a post scarcity-like environment for most goods and services. Thus, money becomes irrelevant at a personal level.

In all this, I can’t see how we stop needing a state. How can we build bridges without a body capable of large scale organisation? How would we have a space program without a state for example? I clearly have gotten many things wrong here. However, I’m unable to find what I’ve gotten wrong on my own. Plz help <3

Edit: Okay, got a very clear and sensible answer from @Aidinthel@reddthat.com. Unfortunately, I don't know how to link their comment. Hence, here is what they said:

Depends on how you define “state”. IIRC, Marx drew a distinction between “state” and “government”, where the former is all the coercive institutions (cops, prisons, courts, etc). In this framework, you need a “government” to do the things you refer to, but participation in that government’s activities should be voluntary, without the threat of armed government agents showing up at your door if you don’t comply.

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[–] Rottcodd@lemmy.ninja 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Your opening point about advantage reminded me of a story I read years ago. It was in some dense Russian tome - I want to say Brothers Karamazov, but I don't know and don't remember. Anyway, it's not mine.

Once there was a farming village in a valley, Their lives were generally peaceful, except for every few years, a band of ruthless bandits would ride down out of the mountains, sweep through the village, kill a bunch of men, rape a bunch of women, steal everything they could, and ride back into the mountains.

Then the village would rebuild, and after some hardship, replenish their crops and livestock and supplies... then the horsemen would ride back down, kill, rape and steal, then ride away.

This went on for many years, until the time that a different band of horsemen rode down from a different part of the mountains, and they killed, raped and stole, then rode away.

Then, shortly thereafter, the customary band of horsemen rode down, only to find the village devastated and everything they intended to steal already gone.

When they found out what had happened, they realized that that could not be allowed. They lived lives of ease through killing and raping and stealing, and they weren't going to give that up, but they couldn't do it if things continued that way.

So they struck a deal with the villagers. The villagers would provide them with everything they would've stolen if they could've, and in exchange, they'd not only stop killing and raping them, but make sure these other horsemen didn't kill or rape or steal from them either.

And the villagers, wanting only to live their lives as unmolested as possible, reluctantly agreed.

And thus was government born.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

Government is born instantly whenever multiple people have to interact and it's about actually important stuff.

Take for example the story of Freetown Christiania in Copenhagen, Denmark.

This area was a large military base in the city of Copenhagen, that the military abandoned. Before this area could be redeveloped, anarchist squatters moved in. Somehow the government didn't step in and let them form their own society.

From the start the people living there noticed that they had common areas and infrastructure that they had to manage, so they formed local councils and each local council sent representatives to the one big council that was responsible for the whole Freetown. Of course, these people wheren't elected politicians, but only people selected by the majority of the smaller councils and sent to the big one to speak for them. No representative democracy at all, only anarchism.

Then they noticed that keeping up the common areas and infrastructure costs money, so they instituted mandatory contributions of all inhabitants. That of course weren't taxes, just mandatory contributions.

When people had troubles with their neighbors or other people, they could bring that conflict in front of a council for the council to decide who was right and what should happen. Totally not a court trial, just a council trying to settle disputes that could set mandatory consequences.

In the 80s then the Bullshit Motorcycle Club and the Hell's Angels fought over Christiania (I mean, who doesn't want to control an area with no real law enforcement?), and the Bullshitters won and took over the Freetown. After a particularly gruesome murder by the Bullshitters, the inhabitants of Christiania asked Copenhagen's police and the Hells Angels for help and they all together where able to break up the Bullshitters and drive them out.

To make sure that this wouldn't happen again, the big council decided to make some more solid rules (e.g. banning biker jackets, no hard drugs) and hired some strong men to make sure the rules where kept. These guys totally wheren't a police force. But if someone was breaking these rules, the strong men would drag that person out of Freetown and call Copenhagen's real police to deal with the offender.

So these anarchists reinvented representative democracy, taxes, laws and a police force. They just called all of that differently.