this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2023
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Mildly Infuriating

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[–] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

So many people here trying to argue dictionary definitions and hide behind technicalities to make their little slice of authoritarianism better than that other slice of authoritarianism.

edit

Good lord, look at the replies to this post. Even being called out on the behavior, they still cant resist slapfighting over silly technicalities and dictionary definitions.

[–] Sanyanov@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Communism isn't inherently authoritarian, it holds no relation to authoritarianism or democracy, just like capitalism, and can exist within any political formation. Conflating communism with authoritarianism and capitalism with democracy will likely result in completely justified dictionary arguments, as this misconception is actually very important ideologically.

Associating communism with things like USSR or, in an even more cursed way, China and claiming communism is authoritarian is actively harmful, especially considering that neither of them ever had communism to begin with - they had socialism and claimed to be directed towards communism some time in the future.

Such shortcuts, like communism=authoritarianism=evil prevent you from actually familiarizing yourself with the concepts and puts you in a position when you oppose a strawman.

[–] prime_number_314159@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In order to collectively own everything, you must have a mechanism to decide the use of the means of production. Some things can be produced, but should not be, and leaving it up to local decision making will produce imbalances, as things that are easier or more fun to produce are produced more often than required.

You need a central nexus of control, and a person or group of people to be the final arbiter of decisions. Every time it's been done in history, either the leaders of the revolution, or the people violent and powerful enough to stab them in the back and take control have landed in this position. Mysteriously, a small group of people controlling all production has only ever lead to tyranny.

Any communism that begins in revolution will devolve into tyranny, and there's no words a dictionary can string together that will change that. Voluntary communes also seem to have problems, but it's more often splintering, which is significantly less harmful.

[–] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In order to own anything at all, you need a mechanism to protect that property with violence. When you have to protect your own property with violence through hired guards, it's feudalism. A necessary quality of capitalism is that the government protects your property with violence. Capitalism cannot exist without governments that defend property with violence or the threat of it.

All modern states are the final arbiters of decisions, just like the USSR and similar governments. If business contracts are signed in America, it's the governments that force people to follow them. If you have a property dispute, the government decides who wins through laws. The government ensures that individual rights are protected through violence, from basic rights like the right to life, to the right to have private property. Laws are backed up by violence, as laws only matter when enforced.

The issue with attempts to establish communism in the past is that their democratic mechanism either failed, or never existed to begin with. When democratic workers councils disagreed with what Stalin wanted, he just ignored them. What could they do about it? When member states of the Soviet Union got upset with federal decisions, tanks were sent in to silence any dissent. These states enforced systems that centralized power and allowed small groups, or even a single person to make unilateral decisions and never have their power challenged.

[–] bastion@feddit.nl -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Stalin made some erroneous philosophical assumptions, and thought it meant he could violate sovereignty. Boy, was he wrong.

Capitalism works more on capitulation, which gives it a but more staying power. Only a bit, though, because capitulation only goes so far.

What we need is a system that people buy into and sustain of their own free will - not from having been coerced or convinced, but because they value it.

[–] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The problems start before Stalin. I also don't know what you mean by capitulation or how the USSR worked less by it than capitalism.

As far as a system that everyone buys into out of their own free will, it's probably not possible. Even in a system that perfectly ensures equality for all people, a couple of assholes will not like the system because they want to dominate others. Even anarchy would require a mechanism to uphold anarchy through violence. The best we can do is to create a system where everyone is equal and it is most prudent to uphold it from a rational point of view.

[–] bastion@feddit.nl 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Indeed, Stalin's not the only failed communist/socialist, but at least he had some valid philosophy backing him (right until he glazed over individual rights).

It was somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek usage of the word 'capitulation'. But I meant it as roughly somewhere between coercion and choice, and leaning more towards choice than coercion does.

Equality for all won't work, structually or socially, except in some narrow (but critical) bands of focus. And anarchy has precisely the flaws you specify.

While 'perfect' equality and anarchy can't effectively exist, a society could be based around concepts of sovereignty. Not abandoning capitalism, but acknowledging the energy flow cash represents, and the need to use it both ethically and effectively. Not abandoning communal collectivity, but acknowledging that respect for sovereignty is the cornerstone to a solid collective.

The issues in any society are distributed throughout its members, and manifest in the psychological and emotional landscape of its people. The sad thing about this is that, as a societal structure hits it's limits, you see people exercising the principles of that society as fully as they can, and it still doesn't cut it. For capitalism, that's working endlessly, getting guilty for not working more/effectively enough, or getting all the things you were supposed to want and entering a general malaise because they're all meaningless.

But the thing is, top to bottom, people caught in the capitalist mindset are all looking for a good deal - and a 'good deal' is defined as one asymmetrically in my benefit. But there's no intuitive and natural, sustainable enjoyment of the results. It's like gambling once the urge has taken over someone, and they don't even pay attention to win or loss. Oh, sure, they like winning and don't like losing, but they're never going to take their winnings and go home, our really make back what they've lost. They're just going to continue.

Anyways - that same distributed nature is what the concept of sovereignty depends on. Capitalism is not something that needs to be fought - it works well with equitable exchange and prudent action. But the mentality that it trends towards must be fought. The urges to follow the advertisement, to take the simplistic way out, and to choose the cheaper (in all senses of the word) option. To trick others into getting the worse end of the deal, or to just be 'good hearted' and look the other way while you get screwed.

With sovereignty, first and foremost, the issues in the world that you care to change are your own to change. They may not be your fault, but they are your situation and cultural background. They are the hand you are dealt. They are your responsibility. And the first place to change them is within yourself - to recognize how you are connected to those things, and how and why what you do results in or feeds those things - and to make change in your own life, first and foremost, before you make claims on what others should do. Enforcement action against others is limited to circumstances where sovereignty has been (or is being) violated.

Until this mentality is prevalent enough to represent fundamental cultural change, it is irrelevant what government is chosen, other than to pragmatically choose what is already in place (or whatever works). Once this mentality is prevalent enough to represent fundamental cultural change, it is irrelevant what government is chosen, because the way out it is used will be effective enough and just enough - and it will be worked towards the ends of sovereignty, both individual and collective.

[–] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago

The problem is that the orthodox MLs you find on lemmy do un ironically defend autocracy in the USSR and China, dismissing criticism of these states as western propaganda.

Trust me, id love a leftist space on the internet which doesn't make folk heroes out of tyrants. Lemmy is not that place.

There are many on Lemmy who do associate Communism with the USSR and China and also think it is a good thing.

[–] Delta_V@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

Context matters in this discussion.

The moderators of the lemmy instance OP got banned from have Russian and Chinese iconography in their profiles - its explicitly authoritarian and arguably communist in name only in order to attract naive idealists who otherwise would be against authoritarianism.

[–] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Yes, exactly like that is what i was talking about.

[–] PoliticalAgitator@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Regardless, there is an important distinction.

You can argue all you like that political systems like communism and socialism may have lead to things like corruption, famine, wars and genocide but ultimately, the people who support those systems are seeking a fairer way to run society for all people and believe in it despite its history.

Head over to the far-right and the genocide is the point. They want "undesirables" to be killed, enslaved or completely repressed.

[–] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's the rub though. Many of us do support democratic socialism and social democracy, and are excluded, mocked, and banned because those forms of leftist ideology aren't edgy enough.

I've tried to calmly explain the academic basis for democratic socialism on lemmy a number of times, and it inevitably results in me getting banned, mostly for being critical of the shockingly violent rhetoric favored my ML purists.

[–] PoliticalAgitator@lemm.ee -2 points 1 year ago

Then either make your comment and eat the downvotes or just don't make the comment at all. You're functionally complaining that a Facebook anti-vax group isn't listening to your science.

[–] bastion@feddit.nl 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's no need to make that argument - history has made it time and time again, and if you succeed at a communist revolution, history will again show that it was a bad idea.

The problem isn't the motives or empathy of the communist and socialist idealists. The problem is the willingness to face hard truths.

It's definitely better to seek a better way to run society. But it's definitely not better to claim you are doing so while executing an old, rehashed playbook of societal failure, claiming It Just Wasn't Done Right Before™️.

We need a better system. Communism is not it. Any system you build must be one that resolvea the ideals of communism with the pragmatism of capitalism. When that system is found, it will address the weaknesses of both.

I think that system is culturally-rooted sovereignty - that each person takes responsibility for their own life and for the sovereignty of others, because it is in their own best interest to do so. It is how I live.

The nice ring about it is that I don't have to convince anyone else to live that way - I get the benefits of it just by living it. The difficult thing about it is that I don't get the psychological convenience of thinking others should think as I do - everyone has their own reasons to live as they do. Until they cross a sovereignty boundary, and I'm involved somehow, I get no say.

[–] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The problem with socialist revolutions is that they reject liberalism, which is foundational to the curation of bona fide political agency. If people are not free to engage organically with political questions, then how can you possibly say their will is manifest as government? "Protecting the revolution" is not a justification for denying people agency. And honest readers of history will find much irony in Lenin's obsession with justifying his own Bolshevik coup as such.

This is an extremely simple idea, but Orthodox Marxist are so blinded by their hatred for all things western (because they are campists relitigating the cold war) that they miss the forest for the trees. For socialism to be the true expression of the people, the people must first be free.

[–] bastion@feddit.nl 2 points 1 year ago
[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 year ago

Can we just not do either? I literally don't care to read about how you think the world is bad on a community about onions

[–] Globulart@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)