I get that people are super emotional about the upcoming election, i am too. But this kind of emotion, and the feelings i see posted on this thread have no use to anyone.

Why do we hate the people who are easily fooled rather than the people who are doing the fooling?

Will openly hating them and showing superperiority to them make them change or just make us feel better?

How long and how loudly will "left wing" voices need to be (voices like this tweet i mean), how open will their distaste for right wing (citizens) have to be, before we on the left start wondering whether the party we believe in has the "moral superiority"it claims to?

I am starting to feel like you could just switch a few words around and then the shit we believe about them and the shit they believe about is identical, in a fun house mirror kinda way

[–] ahugenerd@sh.itjust.works 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I think the post is literally implying that in previous elections, you absolutely could make the argument that people were being fooled, but that's no longer true. People voting for this guy are doing so not because they've been tricked, but because they want to and are doing so with open eyes.

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago

Yeah. At this point (honestly by 2020 no matter what) there's no question. The only two possibilities are a multi-million-Democrat conspiracy against him, or the dude's guilty of 21 major crimes related to election theft.

But Trump voters actually support the idea that it's ok for the Republican to steal an election. Simple as that.

[–] Chalix@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I thought it was because people like Asmongold make youtube videos indirectly encouraging it, saying stuff like "He's actually gonna win the election due to the power of memes and his stupid NFT's, WOW OMG GUYS! How many of you voted for him! Let's POLL it!".

[–] thetreesaysbark@sh.itjust.works 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Interesting point. Here in the UK we tried providing fact checked information to everyone during Brexit. Look how that turned out.

I've come to the conclusion that i need to give up and let the right wingers be right wingers. That leaves one the option to feel superior, especially when those voting further right are clearly ignoring the facts, and can't claim they don't know about them.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The folks who have and will be profiting from brexit spent quite a bit of money convincing folks to vote against their best interests and leave. How can providing "boring" facts an interested party must search for be nearly as effective as an advert if they never become interested? Of course it cannot be as effective.

For our part it's fine to feel superior cuz it's a natural and necessary human emotion, but putting that frustration online like this is leaning into it. It feels nasty to me, and it makes me think of the low, the lowest quality comments i have seen in right wing spaces.

This meandering reply's only point is to say if we really want to dehumanize the opposition we had better take a fucking hard look at what that means and why

[–] thetreesaysbark@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

facts an interesting party must search for

They were literally posted through people's doors.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Is your purpose to complain with me about humanities foibles or are you arguing against the point that stupid slogans and adverts on busses are more effective at manipulating people?

The latter would be an interesting conversation for sure, the former? Sure i agree it sucks but that's the way the world works right now. If it wasnt effective they're wouldn't be billions of dollars spent doing it.

My point is that people can be easily manipulated, a point you agree with. Taking it one step further, getting mad at millions of morons is useless! Useless to you i mean. It's very useful to the people doing the manipulating. It is such a useful thing, such a useful trick, for those whose jobs are to manipulate public opinion, that countless dollars are spent doing so. Of course, if they could, they would want to separate a large class of people whose only power is their numbers, right? Wouldn't that make sense? How, if they could, would they go about it?

Indeed, are you sure you haven't been manipulated into misplacing your anger? Regardless, focus your ire at the ones who stand to gain by ripping your country and people apart.

[–] makyo@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I don't think it's about feeling some kind of superiority. I think it's important to keep telling each other this so we remember - this is who they are. They are not rational thinking individuals.

The reason being that we cannot waste any time or energy thinking they can be redeemed. All our energy needs to be spent on making sure we vote and everyone we know votes. Because they will be voting and voting Trump, and won't be changing their minds. And that vote is a threat to our freedoms and our democracy.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

this is who they are. They are not rational, thinking individuals

Ok, im not trying to start a fight, but look at that statement. how is this not a feeling of superiority?

[–] makyo@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Is that how you see the world, better and worse? To me it’s simply a statement of fact. They are clearly not rational actors. They are voting emotionally - fear, anger, hate.

Before you say it, yes, we all vote with some emotion, but these people are voting against their own best interests in almost every aspect of politics just for some brief dopamine hit to own the libs.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 months ago

Dawg I'mma be real with you now. Take this as my honest opinion, offered without malice.

Those words are a bigot's words. What you are showing me is an astonishing lack of empathetic intelligence. (I am stuggling to be straight with you while also keeping your mind open to critisism, but imma pull out the harsh words first). Can you accept this thing I've said? I know it's only my opinion, but i want to share it with you for what, in my opinion, is to your benefit.

Does this really sound like you? Do you really believe that Rcitizens (im going with this term to distingush from Rpoliticians cuz fuck the Rpoliticians) are so much different from you even though they go through the same bullshit 9-5 crap, the soul sucking existence that us wage slaves live every fucking day, getting run roughshod in the same conditions as you, are so different? You walk past Rcitizens every day on the street, you buy your groceries from them, you work with them. You are fucking surrounded by these "irrational" people every day. Can you tell me without asking them their political opinions which ones they are?

Unless they're the wildin' type with the hat and the truck, no. No, of course you can't.

So, where do these irrational people who only care about hurting you spawn from? It's half the country right?

Here's the way i see the world, unvarnished. There is a political group we haven't spoken of itt, whose aspirations are different from yours and mine. You and i have already heard about them before. They like having power and money, their aim in life is to have more.

They own the news stations, the media companies, advertising. They have publicists and lobbyists. Professional opinion swayers. Golly if they wanted to they could use the power of news to manipulate public opinion away from policies that would help the public, and towards policies that help them instead.

So, do you think they are? doing this? You probably agree so far, right?

Now if they were smart they'd buy at least one station to do their dirty work. Let's say it's FOX as a hypothetical. We think probably FOX has an ever so slight bias towards Rpolicies and Rpoliticians, right? And having watched FOX news and witnessed them saying crazy things that (even more stunningly) the Rcitizens repeat, i know exactly where the Rcitizen's misconception of Dcitizens comes from. A lie from FOX. More importantly from the owner of FOX.

Now, why would this political class be satisfied with only one station? Do you think that everyone in that political class has the exact same beliefs (beyond money and power)? So it stands to reason there are news stations that have all sorts of political stances (besides agreeing on more money and power).

Following this logic, and the verified fact that media and news companies are allowed to mix opinions and facts together, how much do you trust, really trust that what you have read/been told is rational, unbiased, and in your best interest?

In my worldview, your opinion that Rcitizens are irrational actors for you to fear is not rational at all. Im telling you, with love (i swear it) that you have been spoon-fed this opinion. That you have been played for a fool.

I don't blame you at all, just like i don't blame the Rcitizens. I don't blame any of us citizens for trusting a source they shouldn't have. You are frightened. I am frightened. The world is getting fucking scary, and scared people are easier to fool. We are all of us together fools if we don't suspect someone with power is trying to manipulate us, to hurt us, and help themselves.

So they're you have it. I don't really know how this is gonna go over, but look. Really look at it. I don't necessarily expect (or even want) you to agree with me, i just want you to suspect that maybe when you say and believe "the opponent is irrational" that someone bent on taking what you got left wants you to.

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Why do we hate the people who are easily fooled rather than the people who are doing the fooling?

The problem is willful ignorance. A lot of Trump supporters knew better from day 1 and chose to be easily fooled. I had a friend when I was a kid who used to cheer on the defendants in court cases when he thought they were guilty of heinous crimes because they got to "fuck with the system" if they got off. People like that grew up to vote for Trump because he would "fuck with the system".

I think it's ok to hate someone who voted for Trump BECAUSE they wanted to elect an enemy of the majority. It might not be productive to hate them, but it's okay to.

How long and how loudly... how open will their distaste for right wing

We're dumb evil immoral pedophiles who are going to hell, and every time we try to cooperate with them in any way they backstab us and then blame us. What exactly are we losing standing up to them when they're going to punch us whether or not we do?

I am starting to feel like you could just switch a few words around and then the shit we believe about them and the shit they believe about is identical

The concept is assymetry. The most obvious (Godwinian) example is to take virtually any anti-Nazi quote and intersperse the word "Jew". All of a sudden it becomes horrible and bigoted. You can absolutely then take any anti-Jew bigotry and say the word "Nazi", and it suddenly becomes just and true.

Why? Because Trump Supporters and Democrats ARE fundamentally different. The best answer to the paradox of tolerance says that tolerance is a social contract - we are to be tolerant to those others who accept to follow that contract, but it can be open season (in terms of intolerance, not violence) for those who do not.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why? Because Trump Supporters and Democrats ARE fundamentally different.

I don't think that's true, at all. I've been lucky enough to have some conversations with Trump voters and they have indeed said some dumb ass shit. But nothing unexpected, they're all from fox n shit

After we get past the fox talking points and bullshit we are the same.

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I’ve been lucky enough to have some conversations with Trump voters and they have indeed said some dumb ass shit. But nothing unexpected, they’re all from fox n shit

Sure, in a few cases. In others, it was more on the tune of:

"I voted for Trump because he's going to raise taxes on the poor so they pay their fair share"

"I voted for Trump because he promised to get rid of illegal immigrants. Just because there aren't many in my state doesn't mean they're not CRIMINALS who should be removed at all costs!"

"I voted for Trump because he's going to do some crazy stuff like leave the Paris Climate Agreement. This is going to be fucking entertaining and I'll have my popcorn. People are gonna get PISSSSSED"

"I really don't like Trump, but no politician is perfect and I'm willing to deal with Trump because he's going to help us finally ban abortion".

Need I keep going? I blame them all.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

No, but you do need to take a deep breath, because you're talking a lot more than you're saying in anger.

Dont be angry at me for telling you this, that's not why I'm saying it. I'm saying it because i believe that anger is causing you to lose your objectivity.

And please, take one more breath if you're planning another diatribe... the whole point of my initial comment, to say we "shouldnt give in to the urge to dehumanize our opponents". Isnt an invitation for you to demonstrate precisely what i just said not to do.

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'm not angry right now. I'm just telling it like it is to me.

Please be careful not to think you read emotions into comments when they might not be there.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Please be careful not to think you read emotions into comments when they might not be there.

Alright, i read you wrong, i apologize

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago

It's ok. It's so common that companies teach classes on interpreting (or not over-interpreting) emotion into email. It's one of multiple reasons people often get into heated arguments on the interrnet when they would not in person.