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This is indicative of a shitty rhetorical strategy. Really, the only way to hold someone accountable when they use this strategy is to insist on continuing to talk about your main issue, not whatever they want to say.
So, if they pivot to making a point against Hitler's indoctrination of children, then take it back to their use of a Hitler quote that makes that point relevant in the first place.
I may be butting into a topic I don't understand. I don't know much about these Moms for Liberty except that I thing I've heard that they support trump.
The quote in question is: "He alone, who OWNS the youth, GAINS the future.”
It's pretty ambiguous in its meaning and intent. In the context where it was used: advocating for parents to have more control over their children's education: aka decentralize control of children.
But let me point you to a less catchy but far more horrifying quote:
It has 2 upvotes and I'm the only downvote ...
You talk about bad faith actors using shitty strategy to derail the debate. They're affirming that parents should have more control over their children's education, they unwisely used a Hitler quote without enough context in one of their publication and now that's all you want to talk about.
I haven't looked into it but I'm pretty sure that the greater context here is that these parents don't want their kids to be taught that "it's ok to be gay" and "kill the trans" is a bad thing to say. They probably won't say it publicly, but that's what I suspect is really going on.
And if I see them on the fediverse making these kinds of statements I might call them out on it. If I see them accusing the other side of acting in bad faith by acting in bad faith themselves, I might call them all on it. And if I see them almost directly calling for armed conflict, you bet your ass I'll DEFINITELY call them out on it.
But guess who it is that I see acting in bad faith right now? You.
And guess who it is that I see kinda, "but really just joking", advocating for armed conflict / quasi genocide? Someone on this thread getting upvoted that I won't even give the respect of directly responding to.
"I may be butting into a topic I don't understand. I don't know much about these Moms for Liberty except that I thing I've heard that they support trump." I mean, it doesn't take that much effort to go to wikipedia, but here, I've even done it for you:
Mom's for Liberty is so much worse than what you're implying here. They're not some innocent gathering of parents who don't want certain things taught in schools. They're an astroturf, highly GOP connected, right wing campaign that has supported many things like anti-vax propaganda, book bans, anti-LGBT legislature, and the rest of the "normal" GOP stuff. They have an extensive history of getting caught calling for violence against those they disagree with. They have 3 separate sections on Wikipedia about the different people they have been caught threatening with violence.
They were literally labeled an extremist group recently.
From the very few references to them I've seen, that's exactly what I assumed them to be.
That doesn't excuse the behavior I see in this thread. By not addressing their points from a charitable perspective, you're playing right into the astroturfer's hands.
If you have real evidence to present of their true agenda, then present it. Otherwise, fight their presented agenda directly and advocate against their hidden agenda indirectly.
But most importantly there's a comment on here jokingly kinda calling for armed genocide with as of writing SEVETEEN upvotes. There's something deeply wrong with this community and that's what I object to the most.
"By not addressing their points from a charitable perspective, you're playing right into the astroturfer's hands."
That's the exact opposite of how this works. The GOP astroturfers want the conversation to be about "addressing concerns of these poor mothers, whose innocent children are being subjected to XYZ" meanwhile they get to keep fear mongering and raising money. You can tell these people that book banning isn't a good idea for thousands of reasons but that'd be meaningless. They don't care about book banning in the first place. They care about raising money and fear mongering as a way to do so.
And now you're accusing them of being Nazi's. But THEY know they're not Nazis (well those of them that aren't nazis think they're not nazis). So who are you trying to convince? Yourselves? Now they're worried because people are lying about them and what they want and then they'll just donate to the astroturfing organization that's protecting them from the unhinged lunatics accusing them of being nazis.
You need to fight on both fronts, you have to use a charitable approach to slow down grass roots recruiting. AND you attack the values and falsehoods behind the hidden agenda.
They have their public claims and they have their behind closed doors claims. You combat their public claims directly and proactively promote the counterarguments to their behind closed doors claims.
You also indict them for ACTUAL poor behavior that they've done.
This is the best source I could find for the original context for the Hitler quote. Sticking strictly to the context of that image, it's classic: Hitler did this thing that the government is doing, that's why we have to fight against it.
https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/2023/06/21/moms-for-liberty-hamilton-county-indiana-quotes-hitler-in-newsletter/70344659007/
I don't have the actual original before the yellow box was added, so I can't say if the yellow box was the only change. But now all you're doing by attacking them on this nothingburger of a Hitler quote, is you've given them ammunition to talk about how irrational and unreasonable the people opposing them are.
The accusation of ambitions similar to that of Hitler could be true, but your evidence doesn't support it at all. All you're doing is whipping up your side to an irrational fervor which will get noticed by the other side and then they'll do the same thing.
You're making things worse, not better.
I don't know. That's how I do advocacy, maybe it's ineffective. I think it works on the people where something can work and doesn't work on the people where nothing worse. This more unhinged kinda of advocacy is pushing away the people on whom it can work, helps turn the people on your side into lunatics and helps to turn people on the other side into even worse lunatics.
Well then maybe they shouldn't intentionally cough over moments of silence for Holocaust victims.
And excusing that sort of behavior by claiming it's not the group it's just individuals is nonsense. The group encourages it. The group supports it.
Just from a couple of passing references in the passed, I already basically assumed they were far right anti lgbtq+ pieces of shit.
It's just now when I see all the "evidence" you're giving in support of that I'm almost reconsidering my original position... Ok, but not really.
They coughed during a moment of silent purportedly to be in recognition of the victims of the holocausts but the context is clear that the intent was just to humiliate this particular political group.
That's not evidence of anything. It's just another nothing burger.
How is the context clear there? It sure isn't clear to me. And isn't there a better way to "humiliate" someone than mocking a Holocaust remembrance? Especially after quoting Hitler?
I can see that very little is ever clear to you except your preconceived notions.
Obviously, I meant that it was the opponents of the Moms for Liberty that were attempting to humiliate the Moms for Liberty by calling for a moment of silence.
And you keep saying "quoting Hitler" as if that was an indictment on their (the Moms of Liberty) character. They were quoting Hitler in condemnation to his statement, not in support of it.
The opponents were not the ones coughing. Don't gaslight.
And their quote was in big letters in a box by itself with no context, so yeah, it is an indictment of their character. Then they did a half-apology. Then they walked it back. They're proud of their Hitler quote and they happily interrupted a moment of silence for Holocaust victims by coughing through it.
The weird thing is that I'm still fairly confident that the Moms of Liberty do have as their end goal to gain control over education curriculum and make it heavily ideologically based on their own anti-lgbtq+, pro religious and eventually racist ideology. But all this "evidence" you're giving me is starting to make me wonder if I've been bamboozled.
None of this changes the fact that you still have failed to condemn a comment on this very thread that is part of your community, supported by your community and is calling for genocide. Which is IMO still far worse than anything I've seen you (possibly falsely) accused the Moms of Liberty of doing.
The comment was deleted. Which you've already been told. Also, why are you acting like one excuses the other when they're unrelated?
You know there are entire instances devoted to people who love right wing pieces of shit, maybe join one of those and be happy
I can barely tolerate the unhinged comments I find here. I don't think I would survive over there.
Is it too much to ask to have people try and be sensible. Show some kind of respect for the truth. And not try to set the whole world on fire?
undefined> Show some kind of respect for the truth.
The truth is that moms for liberty is a right wing group that is totally for grooming their children to only believe the right wing viewpoint, hates all of the lgbt+ and is also racist as all fuck.
It's easy to pretend to be even handed but reality says...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moms_for_Liberty
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moms-liberty
You don't make the SPLC list unless you are a hate group.
So how about you have some respect for the truth?
I'm not disputing any of that. I haven't looked into it, but it seems very believable that an extreme right wing group hates lgbt+ and is at least low-key racist.
What I'm disputing is the characterization of their use of a Hitler quote as being clearly in support of Nazism. When the context clearly indicates that they were comparing their political opponents to nazis, aka they condemning the quote.
But that's not my main point of contention with the community here. My main point of contention with the community here is that in this thread there is currently a comment jokingly calling for genocide with 27 upvotes and no condemnations.
At the very least Moms for Liberty had the goods sense to publish a correction to make the intent behind their Hitler was that they were condemning. Meanwhile, you guys seem to be doubling down on promoting genocide.
I'm not worried about some post made on a random message board that 27 people agreed with. I'm more concerned with the well funded hate group attacking schools at all levels of government. You can get buthurt about a comment, I'm gonna go focus on the real issue.
It's not a random message board. It's THIS message board, THIS thread. The one that you're contributing to right now. The one where you've decided to argue against the person condemning genocide instead of arguing against the person calling for genocide.
Respect for the truth does not involve giving endless benefit of the doubt to obvious astroturf groups that spread lies and try to ban books.
But a group is composed of individuals. If you treat the misguided members of that group the same as their disingenuous leaders, especially if you're playing fast and loose with the facts, then you'll be pushing them towards their leaders and towards extremism.
That said, I also understand the value of discrediting an entire group as a whole. From a strategic and deterrence perspective where you're trying to reduce the effectiveness and power of the group and you're trying to cause people to second guess lending their support to that group by attacking their reputation. But also from a moral perspective if you're going to lend support to a group that has nefarious objectives and produces harmful results, you have some responsibility for that regardless of your intentions.
But again, I'm most upset about seeing so much support and no pushback to someone sorta kinda jokingly advocating for genocide.
But also the irony of a person B grandstanding about how it's not ok to derail a conversation. When really they're trying to keep it on the derailed topic of the group's original topic.
It's like "oh nos what bad faiths piece of shits these Moms for Liberty are! We derailed the conversation fair and square to this Hitler quote that we may or may not have intentionally misinterpreted and now they want to derail it back to talking about your original grievance, we can't let them get away with this kind of sneaky debate tactics"
I'm obviously exaggerating and paraphrasing here.
Yes. Perhaps you should withdraw your support.
That comment is gone. I haven't defended it. You keep defending the Hitler quote.
No one is getting genocided because a guy on lemmy suggested a dead general should've done more. To everyone but you it's obviously a hyperbolic statement.
Fuck Moms for liberty, they are a hateful and harmful group and do not deserve any measure of tolerance or respect.
Yeah, can you explain this a bit more?
From my perspective, I only said don't let them change the issue being discussed because...well...that's what's being discussed, not their self-aggrandizing goals. And I offered a strategy to do that.
In contrast, you're associating me with some quote about killing "far-right shitbirds" because...why? I'm not seeing the logic of the association between me and that quote or about how I'm acting in bad faith.
I accidently replied as a top comment here: https://kbin.social/m/politics@lemmy.world/t/133199/-/comment/522700