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this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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United States | News & Politics
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I hope you don't mind, I'm gonna focus my reply mostly to this previous response, since I was zonked out last night, and feel out of my depth in the focus on persons with intellectual disabilities without extensive research.
I would say the most harmful thing done to an unconsenting person who suffered a neutering procedure would be the lack of ability to reproduce thereafter. This disability, its consequences is what humans would consider traumatic, not necessarily the knowledge thereof. Being ignorant (I do not concede this ignorance but for the sake of argument) of the harm doesn't mean the harm doesn't occur, though I would grant it could prevent trauma. Further, I think you might accidentally be smuggling in an unsupported assumption. On the one hand you say animals can't communicate (ie, we can't ascertain their consent) but on the other that they aren't traumatized. If they can't communicate well enough to ascertain their consent, how can we ascertain their emotional status? Given that, on what basis can you say they definitively aren't traumatized by this procedure, categorically?
Tentatively granted. Medically necessary surgeries are not violent, though they very often do entail trauma.
I am incredibly empathetic on this line. I feel a huge urge to reproduce despite, y'know, gestures broadly. I hope I have the moral courage to do the objectively right thing here.
My reading of this works out to "A human can make a rational decision, but sometimes doesn't. By implication, animals are incapable of thinking rationally. By extension, animals will never control their population on their own. Therefore, animal populations should be controlled by mass sterilization." [heavily paraphrasing, please let me know if I have taken any inappropriate liberties with your arguments here or elsewhere. I am not looking to argue with a straw man.]
I hope that you will agree once I point it out- this doesn't answer the question. I'm not asking whether/how the practice is justified, I'm asking why it doesn't it constitute sexual assault. (Obviously, since animals are (strictly legally speaking) considered chattel and therefore don't have rights (their owners have rights over them), they aren't protected by e.g. sexual assault statutes. I'm asking the moral question, rather than the legal one.) "If we don't practice what you are arguing constitutes sexual assault, then there could be disastrous consequences for society," [heavily paraphrasing] doesn't answer the question "does this action constitute sexual assault?"
I can foresee an objection in your mind- I'm being too dismissive of your arguments and saying only the answer that I want will fit the question. I disagree. For one, I am not looking for any specific answer. For another, I'm not dismissing your arguments, I am defeating them (in my opinion😊).
I'm feeling comfortable enough around you not to worry about that. It's hard to tell with internet strangers sometimes, but you seem earnest enough. You get the Dark Night of the Soul 🦭 of approval.
I did want to come back to this point, though. With the greatest possible respect, you have been advocating for animal eugenics all along (in my opinion), and I don't see how you're going to successfully argue that you weren't, except perhaps in that nominal legal sense I referred to in parenthesis above.
I'm curious, do you have first hand experience with dogs before and after being neutered?
My father-in-law has three pedigree (blech) dogs, each one a different breed, one boy and two girls, who he refuses to neuter because he likes the idea of being able to breed them with other pedigree dogs and sell the puppies or give them to family.
Wait no sorry he HAD three dogs until the male started raping the females. That created a new generation of dogs in his household, and then the brothers started raping the sisters creating another generation. Now my FIL puts chastity belts on all the dogs, but that still didn't stop another litter from showing up.
Even though he's given away more than half the litter he still has 8 frenzied dogs occupying his household. The girls attack each other when they're in heat, the boys fight each other and try to rape the girls even though they're all wearing chastity belts so it just ends up being impotent acts of violence against each other. His house is a hellscape of barking and fighting but he still refuses to neuter because he has some ridiculous notions about God's plan and procreation being sacred, even as he tries to prevent them from procreating using physical restraints.
In my own home I have two neutered rescue dogs, both mongrels, one male and one female. They don't fight and the male never tries to rape the female. They're very high anxiety dogs because of trauma in their early lives, but they're calm at home with each other as long as no one rings the doorbell. The worst thing my male dog has ever tried to do to my female dog is aggressively sniff and lick her genitals, but we stop that whenever it starts up because that carries high risk of a yeast infection for her.
I don't bring my dogs to the dog park anymore because too many assholes with large breed dogs that they refuse to neuter are unleashing their dogs there, and those big unneutered male dogs like to try raping my male dog. There's no question that it's rape because he tries to escape them, but these big dogs all swarm him and hump him like he's a female. I've had to clean dog cum off of him before.
Now my male dog is traumatized and scared of larger male dogs by default, which is frustrating because there are some large male dogs in our neighborhood who are nice and would make good friends but my male dog is too scared to give them a chance.
So basically, I don't really care about the semantic argument around whether or not neutering can qualify as sexual assault or sexual violence. Those terms imply harmful intent and/or harmful outcomes for the victim, and my personal experience tells me that there's far more harm done by leaving dogs unneutered. I don't believe in arguments about what's "natural" because it's part of human nature to manipulate our environment, and that manipulation can have positive or negative effects. We should judge the merit of our choices based on those effects. Letting nature run its course is not inherently virtuous.
I'm replying to let you know I've seen that you replied. I just got back from my night's activities and am winding down. I look forward to reading your response.