this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
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Cars.
You get it..
Much safer now though. Traffic accidents are much less lethal nowadays (except SUV/Truck vs ped)
Yeah but that isn't because of the LCD touchscreen console and software locked seat heating
Lane assist and being able to control shit via voice or steering wheel buttons absolutely has helped with safety though. While lane assist is not going to completely prevent you from serving off the road if you pass out, it will happen much less often. Of course you should not drive while tired but people still do pretty often. Being able to change a radio station or call someone from steering wheel buttons is a hell of a lot safer than fiddling with a radio dial or searching for a CD/cassette to play. A girl in my high school died doing that one.
Seat heating was not really a thing in anything but luxury models until pretty recently.
I do agree about replacing controls with a touchscreen though. Fuck that. That is absolutely less safe than having tactile feedback.
The problem you’ve addressed is that too many people should not be driving or doing what they’re doing while they’re driving. All these safety features are really just ‘I’m too distracted to pay attention to operating a motor vehicle’ features.
There absolutely is some technology that’s been beneficial. But the cat has been let out of the bag and people are losing the choice to safely operate a car on their own.
Yeah, it turns out humans be humaning. We are not robots. You have the option to safely operate a car on your own but if you so happen to have an issue where you cannot operate one safely in the moment, the safety features help you out. You can still operate a vehicle with lane assist and not even notice that it is enabled. You also have the ability to turn it off. You can also still operate a vehicle with adaptive cruise control enabled and not even notice it if you are shaky operating the vehicle properly. These features do not prevent people from operating a vehicle safely on their own. They are there because a fuck ton of people cannot and never have been able to. The past driver mortality rate which was higher when these safety features were not an option is clear evidence of that.
Again, if you are indeed a robot and have never had an issue of going over the lines or going above the speed limit or ever checked your rear view mirror at an inopportune time when someone in front of you is slamming on their brakes, you can still operate a vehicle just the same as you would if they were not there. Hell, you can also simply disable them. But those safety features are there for the rest of us that recognize that shit happens.
Now I will certainly agree that many people should not be driving. I believe that you should have a hell of a lot more practice than six months of driver's education and passing a very simple test once to be able to drive for the rest of your life. I also recognize that driving is a requirement for many people to work. I welcome alternatives to driving but it is not a reality yet. The increase in safety features helps minimize death and injury in the current reality.
I see this as the problem. We're becoming more reliant on robots to accomplish basic tasks. If the mode of transportation is fully automated - fine. But that is not the case, yet. It's still the licensed driver's responsibility if there's a crash. You can't tell a judge your robot made a mistake.
You know how they say Gen Alpha doesn't know how to turn on a computer or use a file system? It's like that. We can't just give the robots full control of our lives. We should know the basics of operating a car, of being aware of our surroundings, of how to instinctively make a split second decision.
I'll offer a compromise. There should be two (or more) levels of operating licenses. If you want your car to do everything for you, you do not have the same permissions as someone who knows how to fully drive a car. This means you're unable to rent or borrow a car that requires your full attention. At least this creates some sort of stricter legal ramification when someone who's been dependent upon driver assist features for a decade and gets behind the wheel of a "dumb" car and kills someone because they don't know how to merge onto a highway. Frankly, we could benefit from this premise on existing drivers and vehicles today.
Even the most reliable drivers overlook something, get distracted by something on the road or in the car. These features absolutely help more than they harm.
Of course not, what makes you think anything i said is even vaguely related to those negative cherry picks?
Is car manufacturing and design not tech?
Do impact detection, brake assist/auto brake, modern lane assist, distance detection etc not add to safety? I could probably rattle on
Over the past 5 years the monthly road deaths here in aus have been going up, because of the prevalence of those massive cars
Yeah tbh there would be no harm in banning them. If you need a work truck, those are fine. No person in the world needs an SUV or an oversized pickup truck
I wouldn't say "no person" but the F150 should not be the most sold vehicle for the last 10 years straight.
We need to shame Pavement Princesses and Suburban Assault Vehicles out of market dominance.
https://tyreextinguishers.com/
Not sure who would ever need an SUV, especially in an urban env. Most of the common ones have zero off roading capabilities either, so work vehicles are usually specialised.
Thanks for the link though, I'll forward it :)
Those awful american "trucks" do my head in, always a certain type of dickhead driving them too...
This is a matter of perspective and shifting skill set demographics
From the perspective and skill sets of a old school mechanic/gear head who classically never really liked "tech stuff" yes that's a problem.
From the perspective and skill sets of, say someone like me who's really into the "tech stuff", but old school mechanical cars were never interesting are excited about some of the tech in cars, bugs be damned.
You might have gotten excited to figure out and fix what that "Weird knocking" was mechanically where as I would have just thrown my hands up and gone "Fuck. Now I gotta take it to the mechanic".
Now the roles are reversed, now you might be pissed to see the car show "ERROR CODE 73997" whereas I am more likely to have fun diagnosing it "the tech way". Plugging in my laptop, delving through logs etc. in the end I might still need to take it to a mechanic when the fix is something ultimately mechanical, but I sure as hell would have had a lot more fun with it and maybe even a little security against scrupulous mechanics.
Tl;Dr The car heads time is over, the time for the nerds to take over cars has come!
The rest, subscription seats, being locked out of manuals and diagnostic tools by the manufacturer etc are a whole different thing and can fuck ALLL the way off
The bigger problem is, being ALLOWED to plug in your laptop and delve through the logs.
The right to repair has died with manufacturers following in Tesla footsteps, who is following the guidebook from apple.
See my post. They can hardly fuck up the standard OBDII interface without huge repercussions for the industry.
They definitely can. The Chevy volt complies to the standard, but anything outside (ie to do with the battery diagnostics, or electric propulsion system) is behind a completely different protocol where most normal readers won't read.
Considering how every company is trying to paywall everything, I don't doubt they'll continue to push the "limit" further and further from any standard.
Yea, this has been an issue for 20 years, at least.
Manufacturers make it difficult as possible to retrieve any more than basic codes.
It's the constant cat-and-mouse game, and why I bought a very expensive code reader 15 years ago.
My friend, look up dodges asinine "security" gateway.
In some models you have to strip the dash to remove the entire head unit to get to the two extra plugs, not to mention having to have a compatible scan tool - $$$$
Man people on the Internet need to not engage with cars as much, they're clearly ignorant about them and have single instance counterpoints that clearly negate the fact you've put out there.
I swear by my OBD2 readouts, and my friends think I'm a wizard with a thousand dollar tool, rather than a dingus with a dongle, when I tell them what's wrong with their vehicles.
I can't believe you're being dumped on for having a fact about the industry
The original Volkswagen Beetle was specifically designed for literally anyone to work on it.
While cars have had computers in them since the 1970s, they were still easily diagnosed by almost anyone with a basic education (most people took a basic automotive class in high school). If you could fix a lawnmower, you could fix a car.
Now cars are just rolling computers. Mr. Nerd, how often do you upgrade your computer? And how long do you anticipate Teslas remaining on the road? Aren’t they all doomed to the scrap yard in 10-15 years?
You can still work on older cars. They may be less safe, they may cause more pollution. But in the context you’re arguing, I can’t say you’ve presented a compelling case.
Moreover, consumer demand for distraction has driven (so to speak) the popularity of cars and other gadgets to do the thinking for us. A brief example is how often my Uber driver takes a wrong turn into another state because he’s unfamiliar with the city and relying on his phone. A taxi driver would never make that mistake because they’re knowledgeable and able to think for themselves.
I’ll pick a dumb device 9 times out of 10.
Depends, systems that I routinely push enough computational demand through? every couple years (Or at least some part it if applicable) is about average.
The laptop I keep in my room for light research/gaming/general computing/remoting into other systems? When it breaks.
Phones? Whenever I see something compelling enough, every year for awhile until I was on the OnePlus 8T for 3 years before the Pixel Fold dropped
Yes, but it has nothing to do with the on board computers and everything to do with Tesla's shit quality in general
I could just as easily drudge up old ICE "minimal computers" cars that only lasted "10-15 years" because of similar issues
Thanks to better higher precision machining tech and the "computers" working together to significantly decrease wear & tear, newer cars can regularly exceed 200k miles as long as it makes it past the first few years and decently maintained. The older cars you see lasting today are the rare exception, not the rule. Many many of a models "brethren" died LONG ago, well short of 200k miles.
They also cost more long term to, in both fuel economy (The "computers" have far greater control over the engine and associated parts, to more easily achieve better fuel efficiency) and repair costs (In both your time spent repairing (your time is valuable to ya know) and in parts) because they are also far more prone to regularly breaking down.
That's an entirely different problem to the discussion, but also a classic "That new fangled gizmo, kids these days don't learn the REAL ways!!!"
That's fine, car computerization (as far as engine/motor/transmission control go; infotainment systems and subscription heated seats are a whole different problem) is here to stay, the young car heads/mechanics coming up behind you are learning the newer ways regardless. There are fewer and fewer of this stuck in the past mindset every year and every year these older cars get harder and harder to find as they die.
Until some open standards are made for car computerization, it will continue to be used as a tool to keep you as a consumer dependent on the company’s good will and certified technicians. It is so much easier to lock a silly little consumer out of a digital system with closed source and obfuscation than a mechanical one, if both systems have a way to be serviced. When this status quo changes, I will finally give up my old 20+ year old cars. As of now, they are reliable as long as I keep up with their routine maintenance, and they dont track me, monitor me, or lock me out when i need to get something changed or modified. - gen Z system admin
Yea but where's the fun in that? Part of the fun is worming your way through those (Usually laughable) security measures and hacking through. When the white paper came out about the Jeep Uconnect vulnerabilities I used that to eventually take near total control.
I even have the patched firmware on the canbus interface chip in the infotainment system that Chrysler was so kind as to wire it into all sorts of stuff and give it privileges it didn't need lol (That's what those articles were talking about when the researchers were able to get the brakes to stop working)
Right to repair legislation is also alive and well, state after state are passing them, even Apple themselves has been having to soften their stance over the years
For anyone like OP here, get a BT device that plugs in the computer. Then get the Android app, free but worth paying for if you want more bells and whistles. I had a hacked version but was so pleased I bought it to always have on future phones.
You can see and lookup engine codes, see what's wrong with your car. It kind of a trip what all it does. I'm not gearhead, but when the car acts up, I can get a clue. Also clears annoying gremlin lights.
For $6 I consider it a "must have". While you're at it, get an air pump that plugs in the cigarette lighter. Saved me tons of hassle.
OBDII only gives you access to metrics the manufacturer decides you are allowed to access. That's a far cry from having control of your device.
A challenger arises!
https://forscan.org/home.html
This is just the beginning...
Cars are one of the first thing I would use as an example of something that's gotten better. Heated seats, heated steering wheels, better safety ratings, better comfort, power windows, power steering, ABS, backup cameras, adaptive cruise control....
Uh cars now have subscription services for various features. You dont just get whats in the car when you buy it second hand, you still have to pay to use those features.
Repair costs are stupdily expensive in comparison, and require significant diagnostic tools to do simple things because everything in your car has a sensor in it.
And cars are now spying on you to your insurance company because you dont actually get to decide if they are allowed to use your data or not
Sure cars have a lot more features, but they used to just work
Oh, I agree with your complaints. But that doesn't change that cars offer a much more comfortable and convenient experience today than they did in my youth.
Reread what i wrote and thought about it today.
What message im hoping to say is its all downhill from here. Autopilot and AI will be crammed into every piece of tech imaginable and car manufacturers tech has always been trash, I dont know what its going to look like at the bottom but weve gone over the cliff already and we wont know what its gonna look like in 15 years, but we will dream of what we have today.
Ill bet you 1 dollar im not wrong
I still think you're probably right.
What does a person do if they want that stuff now? Get an old car? Is that the only option?
Yeah pretty much.
Unless you want to build your own car from the ground up, which you can do in most places if it passes safety regulations. But that takes time, money, workspace and knowing what you're even doing.
I just bought a 2013 Mini Copper. The tech is relatively limited but I have to admit there are some ergonomic issues - specifically with the lights, wipers, and radio controls. I installed a phone holder but I’m almost regretting it. I’m trying to retrain myself to not rely on gps for everything. Like, I shouldn’t need gps to tell me how to get to my mom’s house where I’ve driven to hundreds of times.
2014 Honda civic here. Thats basically the last era. 10 years from now buying a car will be tough
A lot of the modern tech is really good, though.
Cars are way more reliable than they were. They get way better gas mileage. They have a shitload more power (this is actually a con due to how everyone else drives these days). They're way safer in both accidents and just general driving with traction control and lane departure warnings.
So it's a real mixed bag. But I'd rather have the cars of today.
The only thing that used to be better was more physical buttons. And it looks like the EU will be pushing for that to return (requiring more physical buttons for the highest security rating).
I also prefer the old style heat/AC bar over the modern style where you set a temperature number. What's the point of setting a temperature number when the car doesn't actually maintain or output that particular temperature? For example, if it's 70° out and I set my temperature control to 70°, it might blast cold air at me or hot air. It's a crapshoot. The old style bar, you just set how warm or cool the air was that's coming out of the vents and it didn't change based on external temperature. So much simpler.
But yeah, non-physical buttons are both inconvenient and hazardous.
And also:
Yeah no sorry, as shitty as the software side of cars has become, the hardware is much advanced. And overall cars have become much better, though the recent trend towards SUVs gas removed a lot of those gains as we needlessly buy pricier and less safe cars that use more energy. 🤷 But that's on us consumers, tons of non-SUVs to buy, we're just not buying them.
This is why I'm still driving my 1996 Volvo 940. I can fix most things on it myself (and I'm not even mechanically inclined), and it doesn't have a boot time.
90s Volvos are great! S70 over here.
I have a car with a touch screen and some few physical buttons and it just works. Here, I proved you wrong.
Meanwhile, I have a car with a big touchscreen, and few physical buttons and it clearly doesn't work.
Here, with the exact same ammount of evidence you presented I proved you wrong!
Back in Not-idiot land however, we know that neither one of us have proved anything, we are both presenting claims, with zero verifiable facts, which at best should be treated as unverified antecdotes.
that’s the point I was making: anectdotal evidence is not evidence, it’s opinion. have a nice day.
There was a post asking how you can tell if someone was from gen z a while ago. Nailed it
Not sure why you are getting down voted. I have a Tesla and agree. Now if you had that piece of shit Toyota EV (bzssrt?) then maybe I would agree with OP.
What I wanted to say is that a car's quality doesn't solely depend on if it's got touch or physical controls but on **how ** good or bad they're done. OP overly generalised that.