A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration), Search Lemmy
That's pretty much why I made my own instance: nobody can take it away from me. I can ban whichever instance I deem hostile or don't want content from. Nobody's taking away my API anymore or shoving ads in my face.
Nobody can pull a Reddit or Twitter on the fediverse, there will always be alternative instances to use putting pressure on the big ones to not drive away people.
Quick question, was your instance hard for you to setup?
Federated platforms don't die to corporate-type enshittification. They die to spam or elitism.
If operators fail to collaborate on keeping spam down, the platform becomes unusable or greatly-diminished due to spam. See Usenet for example — yes, it's still around, but it's greatly diminished from the 1990s. New projects and organizations don't tell participants to subscribe to a Usenet newsgroup for discussion. (Curiously, email mailing-lists have outlived Usenet in this way, at least for technical projects. While email is federated, any given mailing-list is centralized.)
If the technology isn't developed with an eye to new users' needs and new use cases, because it's "good enough" for the existing established users, the platform becomes dated and gets replaced by something trendy and corporate. This is IRC vs. Discord and Slack. IRC has a higher barrier to entry and infamously doesn't work well on mobile — but it's good enough for the old farts who care about it, while the young farts move to Discord instead.
I like how old farts are just old farts because they're old. Young people are still farts too. They're just young farts, and will eventually be old farts. And the old farts of today, will eventually be dead farts.
We're all just farts. All in a fart vacume.
Just farting our way through life.
Not until they are eclipsed by proprietary ActivityPub apps. Threads and Flipboard already exist.
However, there is no AP but proprietary rival to e.g. Lemmy/Mbin/PieFed (edit: there will be?) or PeerTube.
Unrelated question, how does Piefed differ from Lemmy? Is it designed to exist alongside Lemmy, or is it a better alternative somehow?
Why not both?
We have topics here, voting is private, image communities can be tiled, there are some differences in rep counting, etc.
No, it's not possible. The openness of the platform means even if one instance decides to paywall, everyone else keeps working just fine.
I think it's inevitable that enshitification will happen. In fact, we haven't risen above the shit stage yet.
You're talking about going downhill, whereas I don't think it's gone uphill yet. There's so few users, that I run through content in about 30ish minutes.
Whereas for as much shit as you'll talk about reddit, they have infinately more content. I cannot remember EVER running out of content when I was on reddit.
Last night I wanted to talk to people who enjoy the advance wars series. I started playing super famicom wars. And I wanted to post about it. Until I realized this isn't reddit. There is no community for that here. It's too niche, and theres no users to support that community. Even if I created it, it would just be 1 community, with like 1 post by me, and 5 subscribers.
Until this place gains millions of users, you can't talk about enshitification, because we're already there.
Unless you come here exclusively to talk about linux. In which case, yeah. Good luck with your platform that is currently 30+ years old, and enjoying an all time high userbase of less than 5% despite windows being a dumpster fire, and macs costing more than a house in an economy where everybody lives paycheck to paycheck and will for the rest of their life. They'd rather deal with apple or microsoft than linux, simply because of what linux is.
If thats what you're here for, than sure. For everybody else, this place feels like it's continually LOSING users.
There is no community for that here
If you open a advance wars or super Famicom wars thread on !patientgamers@sh.itjust.works and !retrogaming@lemmy.world I'm pretty sure you'll get a lot of answers.
Everytime I post on !patientgamers@sh.itjust.works I get dozens of answers
I don’t think it’s impossible. We should be wary, enshittification might find new ways to ruin even the fediverse. I don’t know how, and I’m not pessimistic. But we should not assume we’re safe from the phenomenon.
Even if, for instance, Threads was widely allowed to federate with Mastodon servers?
Ironically Mastodon.social is still federated
https://fedipact.veganism.social/
But I guess if Threads fully federates with some Mastodon instances, people would leave those instances
Maybe, but threads userbase would swallow mastodons whole, that you wouldn't notice. Facebook has something like 58 million people. Mastodon I think has 12 million people, including the recent brazil exodus.
So if that happened, even if every mastodon user were on that one instance, you'd still have a potential growth of 46 million new users.
What really helps is that fediverse users are quite aware of the ideology behind federated social networks. I think, indeed, they won't all stay on a server that is federated with Threads if it threatens the fedi network.
Crap, I'm on masto.ai..
That doesn't affect access to any of the Mastodon servers.
It won't enshittify in the strict Doctorow sense. But it will become shittier as more people who are currently plaguing Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and making those platforms terrible discover the Fediverse and come splatter their cowpats here. That's almost inevitable: it's happened to just about anything that ever became popular.
Incidentally, that's also a big part of the reason why it's supremely important to boycott Threads and not let it federate: the Fediverse needs to grow, but it doesn't need to grow with an influx of low-quality Facebook users.
It's not like the current group of users is perfect either. There's a lot of circlejerk opinions going around, and I've seen being get majorly downvoted for posting factual info that went against the "hivemind" opinion.
That's going to happen in any community. All you can do about it is checking your own assumptions and providing what you see as proof yourself.
Or calling them a bunch of idiots. That won't do any good, in a community sense, but it can be personally satisfying.
Because the FOSS crowd is always so pleasant!
breaks bottle and waves it around menacingly
How to prevent those people from joining? I don’t think you can.
On the other hand, Reddit communities never got that terrible, right? Not all of them at least - it’s more that the platform turned to shit. Lemmy prevents that from happening. The concept of communities moderating themselves seems to work pretty well.
Who would enshitiffy it, and how?
Bluesky are an example of hard to implement federation, so easy to enshitiffy, but Mastodon and Sharkey are still around
I'd say that it's possible but extremely unlikely. Acc. to Doctorow enshittification requires three things:
The Fediverse is designed in a way that it's more resistant to #2, as inter-operability decreases the cost of switch for users - if you see an entity (person, corporation, group, whatever) twiddling too much it's relatively painless to pack your things and leave.
However, I believe that if an instance consolidated so much power in #1 that it's enable to enforce an "it's me or them" on the users, even the Fediverse could be enshittified. And by "so much power" I don't mean something like Lemmy World, I mean a couple orders of magnitude bigger than the rest.
The fediverse's decentralization is meant to circumvent this possibility. It's all too easy to ignore one or two bad instances if it comes to that. No matter how big they get. It's part of the reason you don't see the lemmy.world instance in the lemmy server browser. It forces people to spread across the instances more instead of lemmy.world taking the direction of the fediverse wherever they see fit due to how many users they have. As long as the admins continue to respect this viewpoint, enshittifcation of the Fediverse will be postponed.
It's part of the reason you don't see the lemmy.world instance in the lemmy server browser.
On join-lemmy.org you mean? I didn't know that, but that's great to see. Lemmy.world has become pretty big.
That's correct. The amount of users defaulting to that instance was worrying the admins. They wanted more people to move to other servers to help de-centralize the platform and ensure lemmy.world doesn't control the whole fediverse through sheer numbers.
Probably not the same kind of « enshitification », but I think the fediverse creates small communities, and sometimes, it’s difficult / impossible to find non-aggressive communities for some subjects.
It’s not really solving the issues caused by the users themselves, especially when communities are not big enough to justify big moderation teams, and those people have no incentive at all to be « kind » (it’s hit or miss I would say). Instead of 1 big community with good moderation, you can end up with many small communities with little or bad moderation.
I have no solution to propose, it’s probably inherent to the fediverse.
for some subjects.
Which subjects do you have in mind? Politics?
Not so serious subjects (I prefer to relax while being on the fediverse :) ). Anything related to Facebook / Apple / Nintendo / Disney is almost always filled with comments full of hate. It is much easier to find good communities for that on Discord for example.
See, in the past, I used a lot Twitter to keep up with news about my interests. It was easy to filter out bad users by banning them, and following more « positive » people. I left when it became « X » because I had less interactions and much more ads (probably a consequence of letting users pay to gain visibility). I hoped the fediverse would replace it.
In a sense it worked, because I get a lot of news. But now, I am worried to read the comments or even comment myself because people are most of the time not kind at all. More specific communities have not this issue, but the fediverse is so small that you are forced to be part of more general communities and face the general harsh talk of most people.
Interesting, I didn't know Nintendo was so much hated here. I guess their very agressive business model doesn't work in their favour.
Is it the same on more generic video games communities?
I think it’s even more common among more general communities. But even niche communities like retrogaming can be like that.
Just to give a concrete example, I have seen a post about a pretty cool mod on Zelda ocarina of time where they integrated Pikmin, it has 50+ ups, and a single comment saying they can’t wait for Nintendo to shut it down. What’s the point ? And I see this more and more. It’s not the minority but the majority of the replies I see on such posts. It’s not healthy at all.
Based on Nintendo's past with mods, it seems reasonable to imagine they'll do it.
I post a lot on !showsandmovies@lemm.ee, I know that if it's a Star Wars show people are going to be critical of the way the license is managed, and thé subpar quality of the recent productions.
Thankfully there are other shows that are good, but I can get the criticism against such companies. Disney recently had the backlash with the allergic person they tried to use a Disney+ contract clause against, this kind of moves can hit your image