this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Apparently there's an issue with some instances banning users for criticizing authoritarian governments. Is lemmy.world a safe place to criticize governments?

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[–] lhx@lemmy.world 456 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Well let’s find out: Free Ukraine! Fuck Russia. Fuck China!

[–] breadsmasher@lemmy.world 98 points 1 year ago

fuck the orcs. fuck the CCCP. Winne the Pooh shouldn’t run a country

[–] totallynotsocsa@beehaw.org 86 points 1 year ago

Mao Zedong is objectively one of the worst people in all of human history, and his influence held China back for decades, and continues to harm it to this day.

[–] Zerlyna@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Are you still with us now?

[–] SuperIce@lemmy.world 45 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think Winnie the Pooh got him.

[–] macarthur_park@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago
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[–] FlaxPicker@lemmy.world 179 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

i mean lemmy.world server is in germany, but the guy who runs it is dutch so probably has a pretty open policy with freedom of speech i would imagine. And i mean real freedom of speech not the dog whistle for being a dick/racist/phobe

[–] phillycodehound@lemmy.world 78 points 1 year ago

As one of the Admins of Lemmy.World we're pretty open but if you're a dick and unnecessarily a troll we'll kick ya.

[–] Andonome@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I still feel like I need a new term for this. Yet another word co-opted by idiots.

[–] gabowo@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Freedom of speech with consequences?

[–] Andonome@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nah. I want to defederate from people sharing racial slurs, because I cba with them. If they don't consider that a 'consequence' then I don't really care.

I definitely don't want consequences for people sharing negative opinions about governments.

So I guess I just want freedom of speech + personal curation.

[–] edgerunneralexis@dataterm.digital 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think the crucial thing that's missing from traditional social media is actual freedom of association, and I think thats the underlying thing that causes all these issues around "free speech." Freedom of association is the natural counterbalancing mechanism for "freedom of speech" in any form, and without the former the latter must either become incredibly toxic and damaging or be suppressed.

One of the interesting things we've lost (up till now) compared to physical, offline communities is that if someone was being a never-ending dick or a sealion, the rest of the community could just start naturally avoiding them and not inviting them of their own individual accord, and over time that would lead to the person being excised from the group β€” unless there was a reasonably sized contingent of the group that disagreed with that, at which point the two groups would just split, all without totally banishing anyone.

Or you could yourself choose to leave the group and find another one, if they consistently refused to deal with or helped bad actors, while still maintaining access and contact with some people from that group, and the common social setting and contacts you and the group exist in.

In other words, you'd have a natural, gradiated, and horizontal system of social self-policing that could take care of these kinds of things in a distributed manner. There's a natural outlet besides just trying to shut someone down entirely by removing their access to any community in the area at all or trying to shout over them.

These mechanisms are very hard to implement on centralized social media because it is essentially one gigantic social group that you are either fully a part of or fully separated from. Thus any decisions made about who is and isn't part of this social group are made unilaterally for everyone, and there is no room for diversity in norms and expected behavior, because everything is technically this one giant group, so there has to be this centralized compromise set of one size fits all rules. And because of the unilateral and centralized nature of everything, you need a unilateral and centralized decisionmaking procedure, which in practice and up just being faceless top-down moderation either descending to band someone or ignoring people's pleas.

So it ends up being very difficult for social media communities to self-police in a coherent way, because the platforms operate at two coarse-grained a resolution to see those communities, and it's difficult for people to disengage from toxic stuff they don't want to interact with.

This has created all of the problems we see with speech on social media now, where people who want to be dickheads perceive themselves as being oppressed, victims of authoritarian censorship, because community policing has to come centrally from above, instead of happening naturally and horizontally by a bunch of people either telling someone to leave or leaving themselves; meanwhile people who just want to live in peace and share their joy and interests online find themselves with a very little recourse to reliably avoid such dickheads and find places that feel right for them.

Reddit has this problem to less of a degree because it lets you create different smaller subunities of the social network that all have different moderators and different rules, but it's imperfect.

I think the solution to this is partly decentralization and federation, because they allow people to naturally associate and disassociate with one another on a very individual level that more naturally mirrors how communities and social groups work in real life. Communities can form their own rules, norms, and cultures, and push people out in a meanongful way without having to totally banish them from the entire social world, and people can also naturally move between them until they find one that aligns with what they need and their values, with the right degree of openness and closedness to the rest of the Fediverse, without losing contact with everything else and thus avoiding network effects and isolation effects. The fact that instances can de-federate or mute other instances creates this really interesting ability to partially fragment the network without fully fragmenting it so that you can get truly different experiences on different instances.

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[–] SPOOSER@lemmy.world 114 points 1 year ago (1 children)

All governments should be able to be criticized if we're going to be honest about having genuinely open discussions.

[–] girlfreddy@lemmy.ca 62 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Seeing as having the ability to criticize gov'ts is a fundamental part of democracy I fail to see why any social media site would think banning it should be best-practice.

That said I do take issue with some posters who seem to rant on a specific target without any sort of evidentiary data. The slide into "I don't need proof to back my opinion" is a prolific and dangerous thing these days.

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[–] Nymphioxetine@beehaw.org 80 points 1 year ago

Fuck the CCP.

[–] N00dle@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago
[–] Mpeach45@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

Haven’t had any problems so far! Taiwan numbah one! Fuck Putin!

[–] JigglySackles@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Testing, testing, fuck authoritarian regimes, Xinnie the Pooh is a cuck, Putin is a super super gay who likes long big cocks, fuck Trump, fuck Biden, and fuck the crooks in DC. Testing testing.

[–] skeletorsass@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I just hope people do not spam it to farm karma like on reddit.

[–] thoro@lemmy.ml 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Reads the brave, totally not circle-jerked comments in this thread

[–] Crackhappy@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

What would be the point. There is no points system in the federation.

[–] STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Lemmy.World and Lemmy. Ml are two different places. Lemmy ML was created as a safehaven for people from subreddits that were banned like ChapoTrapHouse. Lemmy. World is designed to be the general Lemmy Community. Lemmy. Ml was the biggest until the reddit issues but I am pretty sure Lemmy World is after overtaking them. Lemmy.ML is trying to steer traffic here because they know that their community wasn't going to be palatable to the vast majority of people. There's a wide variety here so it's very hard to pinpoint where this place's userbase stands politically.

Lemmy. ML and Lemmy.world are different places and it's for the best if we just leave each be and have our own communities in peace.

[–] TeaHands@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

If you check out the instance sidebar, we're basically running on the same rules as mastodon.world (presumably until such time as we need something more Lemmy-specific)

https://mastodon.world/about

[–] Izzy@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

It's difficult for people to have discussions on the internet that involve disagreement without it becoming uncivilized. I don't think being critical of the CCP is a particularly divisive viewpoint everywhere outside of China. I can't imagine the conversation devolving to such a state that it has to be completely banned from being discussed.

[–] nodsocket@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

There is a mod log on Lemmy so you can see why people get banned.

[–] BombOmOm@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Slightly tangential question, is lemmy.ml a Marxist/Leninist instance? I had seen some users insinuate that but I have no fucking clue if they were just saying shit.

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