20
submitted 2 weeks ago by Coelacanth@feddit.nu to c/games@lemmy.world

Stumbled upon this randomly today and thought it was surprisingly good, especially for the subscriber count. Particularly the bit about the inherent problem of save scumming in stealth games is something I've thought about writing about myself, but I guess someone else got there first, as this is pretty much an exact mirror of my thoughts.

top 7 comments
sorted by: hot top new old
[-] muhyb@programming.dev 4 points 2 weeks ago

Even though my focus is usually far from stealth mechanics for making my game, I still watched it in one sit because it's well documented and interesting. It really is hard to create a good balance.

[-] ampersandrew@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

Pretty thorough breakdown, and I'd agree with most of it. Some paraphrased bullet points though:

Perhaps stealth isn't doing well right now because of all of those bad stealth sequences in non-stealth games that are otherwise great

Possible, but I doubt it. The late 90s and early 00s was full of those too, but that was also simultaneously the height of stealth games. I think it's just that fads come in waves. Underground racing games were hot when The Fast and the Furious started. World War II shooters were popular after Saving Private Ryan, and modern military shooters followed when a lot of the target demographic either fought in the war on terror or knew someone who did. Dungeons & Dragons and a lot of Led Zeppelin's catalogue only exist because The Lord of the Rings books made a huge impression on people. If something in the cultural zeitgeist comes along that would make a good stealth game, there will be more stealth games; at this point, the last James Bond movie was 5 years ago, and the next one won't be for a while still.

A good compromise we landed on rather than perfect wallhack vision was to mark targets

Perhaps, but I'm even kind of sick of that, too. I played a good portion of MGSV without tagging and found it perfectly playable, largely because, as he acknowledges in the video, you can scope it out from any angle from far away before you make your approach. This is something the original Deus Ex and Ghost Recon: Wildlands do well too, even though the latter also does the trivialized target marking. I don't mind some light wallhacks when you're up close to simulate the character's hearing, like in The Last of Us. If we found ourselves in that stealth situation in real life, we'd have pretty good three-dimensional awareness of enemy locations just by the way sound bounces off the walls, and I think it's okay to represent that in some way. I think the marking target mechanic is so prevalent because Ubisoft made a large number of games featured in this video and inspired more still; and Ubisoft for the last decade and change has been a company that made an efficient machine for churning out games that used a lot of common mechanics between multiple franchises.

Playing through 007 First Light right now, a lot of my most common grievances are in predictability, but not of the enemies. There are a lot of context-sensitive actions, and while this game has a sort of tutorial that we'll be talking about for years, it did a poor job of explaining those contexts to me. I had similar issues blackjacking guards in Thief, and there's that guy-on-the-couch section in Splinter Cell that he highlights in the save scumming section that you could describe much the same.

[-] Ephera@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

While watching, I was thinking that roguelike could be a solution here. Cool to see that it's actually working out.

If I remember right, Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead is also stealth-y + a roguelike. Gonna have to try that again. I believe, I actually found it too tense last time around, but might've just been past-me. 🫠


I also have to say, I really hate that mark-enemies-manually feature. As the wisdom goes: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
Source

I'm that player. I will spend far too much time trying to mark any pixel of any enemy that shows up on my screen. It's not fun, but I'll do it anyways, because the game is telling me this is the big mission, this is where the prep work is important.

It also never made sense to me lore-wise. How can you be able to track people once they're marked, but you can't detect them without marking? Whatever technology you use to track their movement after marking, it has to be able to detect that movement without line of vision. If anything moves in the area, just show me that. 🤨

[-] I_Jedi@lemmy.today 1 points 2 weeks ago

Gotta say, the alien in Alien: Isolation is my favorite "guard" in stealth games. That encounter in the medical area really is something.

[-] Coelacanth@feddit.nu 1 points 2 weeks ago

He touches briefly in the video on the fact that horror games do get around some of the challenges of stealth games, seeing as there is still tension in hiding from a monster.

But honestly, it's all just a question of immersion, even that. Horror games get much less scary without stakes, and few games implement them well. That's another good subject for a video essay. The alien in Alien: Isolation becomes much less scary once you realise it's just a walking reload button. So what if it catches you? You can just try again. Same issue as with most stealth games, only with an added jump scare.

That's why I think games like Until Dawn have solved the issue of horror game stakes the best. In a regular horror game, the main character can never die before the game is over. That means failure just leads to reloading. In an ensemble game, your poor performance can get people killed and bad things happen, but the story trudges on. That keeps the tension high.

Another way is with some sort of permadeath. Darkwood on hard mode with limited lives is fucking scary. Some sort of stakes is needed for the fear to set in, unless your game produces horror from a different angle (existential, cosmic, psychological, visual body horror etc).

Anyway, I guess I got a bit sidetracked here 😅 I do agree that as far as AI behaviour goes, the alien in Alien: Isolation is an excellent guard!

[-] I_Jedi@lemmy.today 1 points 2 weeks ago

The paranoia is what makes the alien scary to me. Its footsteps are pretty loud, so you know it's close by, but you don't know if it's going to hop back into a vent or walk into the room you're in. The alien is also smart enough to prepare ambushes, too. I've seen it crouch down and wait for anything passing by.

[-] Katana314@lemmy.world -1 points 2 weeks ago

One issue I've found with stealth games is that the concept of a lone commando outsmarting and sneaking past 30+ guards is pretty unbelievable to begin with, unless the player controlling the commando is actually a tactical genius. So, games tend to have to play pretty unrealistically in order to make the result playable by average players (idiot guards, x-ray vision, generous interpretations of darkness, super movement abilities, etc)

Something I think could be further explored is a game that explores a mechanic of "Plausibility". Stealth long accepted that guards would react to footsteps. Breath of the Wild including a noise meter helped me think "Hey, why is that? This is a big compound with a lot of people that's been quiet for the past week - wouldn't they assume the footsteps are their friends?"

Another concept that I think was explored in a very janky way but could use a second look is the game Shadwen. It's not a great experience, but it has the interesting idea of combining stealth with Superhot and Braid - you get full control over time, including time only moving when you do, and can rewind instantly from a failure. The game even shortcuts "spotted" phases by giving guards instakill crossbows, so the remedy to being spotted is just to rewind. The fun, then, is in creatively engineering the one-shot stealth circumvention you had in mind, even if a mispositioning messed it up the first 6 times (because it only took 15 seconds to get a successful effort).

this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2026
20 points (100.0% liked)

Games

50821 readers
2034 users here now

Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.

Rules

1. Submissions have to be related to games

Video games, tabletop, or otherwise. Posts not related to games will be deleted.

This community is focused on games, of all kinds. Any news item or discussion should be related to gaming in some way.

2. No bigotry or harassment, be civil

No bigotry, hardline stance. Try not to get too heated when entering into a discussion or debate.

We are here to talk and discuss about one of our passions, not fight or be exposed to hate. Posts or responses that are hateful will be deleted to keep the atmosphere good. If repeatedly violated, not only will the comment be deleted but a ban will be handed out as well. We judge each case individually.

3. No excessive self-promotion

Try to keep it to 10% self-promotion / 90% other stuff in your post history.

This is to prevent people from posting for the sole purpose of promoting their own website or social media account.

4. Stay on-topic; no memes, funny videos, giveaways, reposts, or low-effort posts

This community is mostly for discussion and news. Remember to search for the thing you're submitting before posting to see if it's already been posted.

We want to keep the quality of posts high. Therefore, memes, funny videos, low-effort posts and reposts are not allowed. We prohibit giveaways because we cannot be sure that the person holding the giveaway will actually do what they promise.

5. Mark Spoilers and NSFW

Make sure to mark your stuff or it may be removed.

No one wants to be spoiled. Therefore, always mark spoilers. Similarly mark NSFW, in case anyone is browsing in a public space or at work.

6. No linking to piracy

Don't share it here, there are other places to find it. Discussion of piracy is fine.

We don't want us moderators or the admins of lemmy.world to get in trouble for linking to piracy. Therefore, any link to piracy will be removed. Discussion of it is of course allowed.

Authorized Regular Threads

Related communities

PM a mod to add your own

Video games

Generic

Help and suggestions

By platform

By type

By games

Language specific

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS