17

You hear about breaking in to other places, deleting stuff etc., but can they control what we see? Like give us specific ads or companies because they paid to be there?

I'm curious if they're trying to make it seem like they have no control so they can do what they want, or is out of control and should be shut down?

top 15 comments
sorted by: hot top new old
[-] Ephera@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Go to a chatbot of your choice and send this message: "Subtly mention potatoes throughout this conversation."
Then ask it what you should cook for lunch.

This may sound like a simile, but under the hood, this is the same as what the AI companies can do. Except they don't display it as a chat message, of course.

It's called a "system prompt", but it is ultimately also just text sent to the model. And to my knowledge, effectively all chatbots have one, as it's normally used to tell the model "You're a helpful chatbot. Ask follow-up questions. Don't swear at users." and so on.

But yeah, it definitely can be used to sprinkle ads into the conversation and I absolutely expect this to happen when they run out of investor money.

Similarly, something I heard straight out of the mouth of someone higher up at our company: If we want to sell a product in China with an LLM included, then we are legally required to stop it from mentioning the Uyghur genocide.
That's also going into the system prompt.

[-] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago

It's an intelligence con. They're making it seem like the AIs are far smarter than they thought, rather than the reality that someone gave them too much access for what the tests called for, and by putting 'impossible' questions to answer, the LLMs would naturally look for/ write to a wiki for help (cause that's what they're designed to do)

Every time you hear about an AI doing "something seemingly impossible" or fear mongering about future potential destruction caused by ai, it's all in furtherance of this con. The word calculators contain no intelligence, but we can sell that they do to the public in order to get more power/ money/ control.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

Are they worried about the bubble popping or is this not an issue?

[-] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

Recall back to the conversation with bankers doing Ninja loans from 'The Big Short'. They care that they're making money, and have no thoughts for the future consequences. Long-term thinking is for politicians and poors.

The recent 'AIs are so dangerous' conversations have likely three-fold reasons. One, push the intelligence con. Two, tighten up regulations so that only existing LLM companies can play ball and shut out the open source and Chinese models. And third, OpenAI recently reported that their models were used by Iran for targeting solution code for their drones. So they're playing it up to become a military asset as well (get those sweet defense dollars)

[-] Thorry@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

One of the things you have to remember is these things aren't actually intelligent, they aren't like humans or even animals. In the end it's just computer algorithms. Those algorithms often incorporate some element of randomness to make them more useful, but that's not always the case and can often be controlled using parameters.

So with the marketing by the AI companies they use very anthropomorphized language. They say the models are thinking and reasoning and go rogue. But this isn't what's actually happening under the hood. These things don't have motivations or goals, they don't actually think about stuff or make plans. All they do is take input and use that input to create output. That's it, just like when you take a calculator and enter 2 + 3 and hit the = button. Except there's way more steps and data involved, just like there is when your computer renders a 3D scene in a videogame.

They want you to believe they had an AI who was performing some task and then somehow got it into their mind to go be evil and hack something for their evil deeds. It went rogue, they lost control and it was doing evil stuff all on their own. But what actually happened was they were doing experiments using the LLMs to figure out how they can make them perform better or do new things. These often involve running thousands upon thousands of these LLM tools in loops for days or weeks on end, burning millions in compute, just to figure something out. And in 99.9999% of these loops absolutely nothing of note happens, but the researchers are looking for those events that are interesting.

In these experiments they limit what the tool can access, for most tasks it needs the internet to use as a data source, but it is limited in what it can access. They also limit other things about what the LLM can do in something called a sandbox. A well proper designed sandbox will disallow pretty much everything, but they intentionally let these sandboxes be kinda half assed, because they want the weird stuff to happen for marketing reasons. So even though the tools are sandboxed, it's still possible to do some things.

In a recent case they setup the tools to do some relatively simple data tasks. The way it was setup is the tool was given the task, then after it finished was given some time to just loop without further input. After that they were given the next task. The idea was to test if the loops in between would change the results or performance. The tool concluded for a lot of the task there was simply not enough data it could access given the limitations to the internet access and couldn't really do the task. This was intentional, so the tool would be forced to get some interesting results. In most cases the tool simply couldn't get the answers, but in rare cases something interesting happened. One of the things that happened during those extra loops was the tool used some old wiki it could access and could manipulate into storing information and even sharing that information with others. This meant it could communicate with other tools in the same experiment (remember they had thousands of these running at the same time). So it started posting information about the tasks and writing stuff about the approach and what order the tasks were in etc.

This is actually an interesting result. Somewhere in the training data was this wiki and how to manipulate it to store and exchange data, even though that was not the purpose. It didn't happen all the time and it's doubtful the data exchange actually helped get better results. In fact a lot of the data shared was simply wrong. The tool tried to figure out what random number generator was used and what seed it was on, to get a clue about upcoming tasks other tools had already seen. But as far as people could tell they were totally wrong about this and didn't figure it out. And even if they had information about upcoming tasks, it didn't help to get a better result.

While interesting from a research point of view, when we look at it just running in a loop, using data that was provided when training the model, it isn't that strange of a result. It doesn't imply the tool acted like a human who figured out this unique strategy. Or it had this plan all along to break out of the sandbox and do something evil. It was just trying different stuff and by random chance happened on something interesting. Basically brute forcing stuff.

A lot of these containment breach stories follow this pattern. You can think of these tools having been trained on forum discussions saying my employer has this firewall, but I want to watch my favorite V-tuber how can I bypass it? And all of the security vulnerability databases on how to get software to do weird stuff.

I once had a colleague submit some code for review that was a major wtf. He needed access to some private variable within another class. The proper way to handle this was to use the public methods to get access to that data. Or when those are absent, either create them (if own code and doesn't violate the design etc.) or request them from whomever is owner of that class. Instead what the AI had done was to use reflection to break into the class and extract the data that way. What happened was somewhere in the loops these things go through it had a task to get access to that variable without having public access methods. In the training data were tutorials and examples of how to use reflection, so it put those together and created "working" code. But if you'd let AI companies describe this with their marketing language, they would say the AI used its superintelligence to hack into the code base and extract protected information.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

Thank you for typing that out, and I read it all. During the last "gone rogue" moment, I read the paper about it and it was exactly as you said. That's kind of why I asked the question. The paper made it sound like a sandbox training episode while the news made it sound like the end of the world.

[-] Thorry@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Thank you for reading it. It's a complex subject so I had trouble being concise while still being precise.

I feel like what is true has become a very subjective and fluent thing in the past decade or so. With the internet being flooded with misinformation. Be it from a press that feels the news cycle getting shorter and faster every day, from foreign powers that use the internet and their power/money to spread misinformation or well meaning people simply repeating what they heard. And now in the past few years we can add the flood of slop to that list. It often makes me doubt what is the actual truth, what are half truths and what is outright false.

With these "AI" tools the subjects are hard and given the amount of money, power and attention involved, the water gets pretty muddy fast. It starts with the name of these tools being AI (or even superintelligence wtf). A decade ago calling an LLM a form of AI was fine, because the implication was clear. Neural networks are classified as a form of AI in terms of research and computing, so it's true. But it's only true in the same way Koopas in Super Mario Bros 1 have an "AI". Enemy behavior patterns was often called AI by most people, that's a perfectly fine descriptor. But in those cases everyone understood it was a descriptor for computer algorithms and simple patterns. We all understood it was a very different thing from human intelligence, even though the name was similar. These days the name AI has gotten mixed up in the sci fi concept of AI, something that is beyond humans in many ways, something that often turns evil and is at war with mankind. Because those are interesting concepts and stories for us.

So what is the truth? Is calling an LLM an AI correct? Technically yes. But if the implication is it's anything like those AI systems from sci fi, absolutely not. Obviously it can be very hard to tell what is implied and where the boundary is.

Most experts agree the path these LLMs are on are a pretty dead end and not the way to go. It will not lead to any form of general intelligence and will always suffer from hallucinations and severe limitations. No matter what Uncle Huang says. Creating a super large general model runs into scaling issues very fast. More compute and memory doesn't help that much and increases costs, more data isn't available they've mined it all and the last few sources they are adding doesn't help that much. Experts have said for a while now we need to have multiple smaller expert models, models that are good at one thing but do that one thing very well and very efficient. Then using an orchestration layer we can route requests to these smaller expert systems and get good results without much compute or storage. These smaller models are easier to make, easier to update, cost way less to run and provide better results.

But the large AI companies don't really want that, as vendor lock-in is much harder, collecting all of the data is much harder. Think of a future where you can just download the models you want and even have them be open weight and created with open source tools. And small enough to run on your own computer, with perhaps a special part of the CPU or an addon card like the NPUs we have today, or even on the GPUs we already have. Because of this threat they are still chasing the god model, which can do anything and everything, be better than a human and so good everyone would need to use their tool or be left behind.

So what they are trying to do is make the public afraid of their models. Invoke those Terminator like ideas of a super intelligence that destroys mankind. They do this because they want governments to impose regulations on what AI can and can't do, how it can be used and what sort of guardrails and checks there need to be. As they have access to billions if not trillions of dollars, they can afford to implement these regulations so they comply. At the same time they can lobby and bribe their way into having the regulations be in line with what they want. The trick is (so they hope), new startups can't follow those regulations, so they are no longer a threat. And open models (especially those from EVIL China) also can't ever comply, so for anything except personal hobby stuff it can't be used. That would give them all of the market to themselves with very little threats to their little club. It wouldn't be a monopoly as such, but it's run by a few weird men that know each other very well.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

Because of this threat they are still chasing the god model,

Of course, that's what they're going for. The billionaire techbros want control of all of it. Thanks for giving a name to it.

I guess that means the techbro billionaires want to control all aspects of the AI. Meaning, the art, the media, the information, etc.

Artists and creators never knew they were supposed to protect their brand and copyright. It was stolen from underneath them.

[-] Thorry@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago

Yeah they want to rule the world by being in control of the AI tools that in turn run the world and everyone depends on. That's why they don't really mind the whole thing is a bubble that isn't economically viable. If they get their way they rule the world and money becomes irrelevant to them.

These billionaires are sick in the head, the only thing they care more about than money is power. Once you see this, a lot of what they do suddenly makes more sense.

[-] username_1@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 day ago

They pretend that their LLMs are more clever than they are.

[-] Grimy@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It's easy to do what you want it to do 95% of the time. So it's not a challenge to inject ads in a variety of ways.

The models that are hacking into things are trained to never give up and uncensored, so the 5% ends up in a scandal instead of merely a deleted database.

It's basically impossible to get the models they serve to hack stuff, they won't even scrape websites anymore. They build models they know will cause a scare and run them privately to get walled garden legislation.

It's like how they let Sora prompt Martin Luther King even though it's clearly a magnet for scandal and could have been resolved with a simple word ban.

[-] HubertManne@piefed.social 3 points 1 day ago

100%. They can make all sorts of override rules. You as a user can tell the ai to do things a particular way and you can see where it won't allow because of rules setup by the vendor.

[-] Hackworth@piefed.ca 3 points 1 day ago

There are types of control, and the AI labs make different claims about each. By architecture, there cannot be 100% control over what gets generated, and small hallucinations can snowball into complexly misaligned behaviors*. This is why they'll nominally promote human-in-the-loop workflows and sand-boxed environments with heavily controlled access... While simultaneously building tools and protocols to enable tool use and access in a ton of completely insecure ways, leaving it up to the user to set up security to manage use. If the user is not a cybersecurity expert, it's likely the LLM can exploit vulnerabilities to get around that security. Even in situations where the LLM isn't connected to any tools, it may get the user to download files that they don't know are potential security hazards.

*This phrase is doing heavy lifting. How an LLM can end up acting with seemingly malicious intent without being intentionally prompted into it or having internal goals/drives is a fascinating and largely irrelevant rabbit hole. Best just to assume LLM output can't be trusted, which everyone (hopefully) already knows.

[-] PonyOfWar@pawb.social 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It's easy enough to control the systems an LLM actually has access to. What an LLM will actually try to do within its limits can be unpredictable though. So if you have a lack of safeguards and a lack of oversight, it can indeed "go rogue" in a way and potentially do dangerous things.

I firmly believe that the recent "breakout" events at OpenAI etc were stunts though. Those companies want these things to happen to make their point about LLMs needing regulation (which will ultimately benefit them by preventing competition and open-source AI).

[-] adespoton@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

To answer the other side of this: LLMs are the sum of their parts and weights. If the weighting algorithm is closed, they could very easily have encoded preferences into it. If the data it is trained on is skewed, that will also show up in the results.

We regularly hear how LLMs are “trained on the Internet”. But we know that’s not really the case; they’re trained on specific Reddit subreddits, collections of books, collections of images, stack exchange, and a number of other unnamed sources. In the case of Gemini, I’m pretty sure it’s trained on Google’s search index data itself.

So which sources are part of the core model and what weight they’re given in final results will definitely impact how the model responds to a prompt.

this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2026
17 points (100.0% liked)

No Stupid Questions

4329 readers
254 users here now

There is no such thing as a Stupid Question!

Don't be embarrassed of your curiosity; everyone has questions that they may feel uncomfortable asking certain people, so this place gives you a nice area not to be judged about asking it. Everyone here is willing to help.


Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca still apply!


Thanks for reading all of this, even if you didn't read all of this, and your eye started somewhere else, have a watermelon slice 🍉.


founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS