I couldn't agree more. And I don't think I'm being hateful here, I just honestly believe that monsters like that should get locked up for good. If they prove that they're a danger to other people (in this case, young, innocent women) and society by doing something so heinous, they should get jail for life, not writing essays...
Can we all agree on this?
I do want to bring up, that, from what I've heard, the victim in the Jacob Geller stuff didn't want to come forward about it. I cannot imagine what it's like to become a social media sensation this way. I know the truth is out now, but like I don't think she wants to see randos chiming in with their based opinions on all the terrible things the legal system should have done to her abuser. It just really puts me off that this was released without her involvement.
I've seen it so often that people ignore the victim and instead go about focusing all attention on enacting violence against the rapist. It's basically like a cue for the "good men" to be allowed to pretend to be protectors of women via performative extreme violence against the "bad men." Ofc it isn't just men doing this, but still.
I'm not like an anti-violence person btw I do believe we should have feminist violence, but I believe in the violence necessary to abolish patriarchy, not legalist and performative ultra-super punishment against the endless stream of rapists that patriarchy creates; it doesn't help to whack the moles harder if you don't address why they keep showing up and it definitely can't un-rape people. If we just used half of the mental energy we spend fantasizing about creative ways to punish rapists on actually helping victims... imagine.
"if you don’t address why they keep showing up and it definitely can’t un-rape people. If we just used half of the mental energy we spend fantasizing about creative ways to punish rapists on actually helping victims…"
....
Instead of just helping victims why not we create a world where becoming a victim is almost impossible? Things like universal mental health care for young peoole, of all genders, who are having thoughts of becoming violent so that they rarely ever do become violent towards their partner? And also univeraal acccess to housing so that a partner isnt stuck with a violent partner cause they have no access to housing elsewhere?
I do not mean reforms. I mean complete revolution!
These are just a few uncompletely-thought-out suggestions that Ive thought up. There are other peoole out there who have thought up my idea more thoroughly and have more and better suggestions as to how to make such a world a possibility.
The harsh truth humanity has to face is that stories like this will keep on and keep on and keep on coming out again until humanity substantiates a substantial permannent change in all societies to ensure that committing intimate partner violence or SA or domestic violence is almost an impossibility because the average person innately realizes how self-destructive it would be for them.
Edit: ALso I was able to find a narrative review on sexual violence of both adulfs and children and they have suggestions as to how to prevent both forms of sexual violence by giving children mucu deeper education than we cureently have on the importance of sexual boundaries and bodily boundaroes and the importance of embracing each of our identities (for example 'gay conversion therapies' are still legal in most parts of the planet if my memory about tje topic is correct even though they shouldnt be legal anywhere!) https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6283686/
bingo, very well put.
I think calling it ruining their futures is an unfair framing. It's applying justice blindly, rather than giving even more to those who've already been given everything.
I had a lot of sex and a fair bit of drugs and alcohol in college, but I never did anything remotely similar to these men because I'm not a rapist. These men made their choices, and if a preponderance of evidence can be obtained they'll financially pay for what they probably did, and if the jury can be convinced they will face the penalties for what they did beyond a reasonable doubt. When all is said and done they're free to rebuild their lives however they can and we should treat them as having paid their debts to society (barring any Brock Turner level punishment)
It's not like they left the victim with an easy future.
I agree with you.
I just wanted to point out something I think a lot of people don't want to confront when they say something like"I've never done anything remotely similar to these men"
You remember not having done anything like the men, and I assume you're talking about the Cornell rapists, but the line is much more blurry than people want to admit.
You don't remember making anyone uncomfortable and I'm not saying the following is true for you because I can't know... But social interactions aren't a flow chart and feedback isn't always clear and this becomes even more true when it comes to sex and emotions.
Maybe you asked too many times and they gave in but to you it was once or twice. Maybe you misinterpreted a signal and they went with it half heartedly. Maybe they didn't say stop or tell they didn't want to because they were afraid it would ruin a good time. Etc. These are all things that could be labeled as sexual harassment and when sex is involved, rape.
Shit can be much more nuanced, awkward and unclear and especially to people who have trouble reading social cues. Women are often afraid to say no because of the potential for violence or more commonly, the social consequences.
It's soothing to demand justice and see situations like that and feel superior to them but I would be willing to say that 90% or more of men have done something that goes right up to the line, especially in college when people are learning to be people and having their first sexual encounters and not having parents etc to hold them accountable.
None of this is to defend rapists and idk the solution outside of raising my son to know what consent is and how important communication is.
TL:DR nuance, personal accounts as a victim, and a call for better consent education, better communication of misunderstandings in all aspects of life, and a shift towards an attitude of restorative justice
I get that, and yeah I'm a woman who has been violated in such ways. Once by someone who I had slept with many times, but we were drifting apart as I met my wife and it was easier to have sex than to have the uncomfortable conversation I would've had to have had I given and held a firm no. That and a far less ambiguous incident between them and a friend of mine were both tied to their lack of emotional regulation from BPD. I definitely don't think that person should face consequences for anything they've done to me, even if I would probably advise my younger self not to get involved with them in the first place, and absolutely to have the fight instead of the sex.
I also have another incident with a woman (who also had BPD) who kept negotiating away every no I gave, especially the ones that contained reasons (turns out it's really hard to say "your face and personality are both very unattractive to me"). That one was much more obvious and serious to the point that by the time I was able to break away I was having nightmares of her. It was absolutely a form of violation and had we been in college together or something I would have deserved protection from having to interact with her, even if I personally don't know if I think she should be arrested for it.
Things like these are within the blurry part of the bad side of the line, and in many ways can be contrasted to the "fully enthusiastic and everyone is fully intoxicated" sex which is potentially in the blurry part of the good side of the line though if I am a firm believer in one's right to get down while drunk/high. Sex is a messy topic and it often involves people being young and not displaying great judgment and having big feelings. Hell, I've even had sex where there was pain and regret through no fault of anyone.
I think we do need to be teaching that this all is messy, but we also need to be teaching how to ask for consent in a way that's appropriate as well as teaching everyone the confidence to say no even if it means being a buzzkill or ruining someone's mood or whatever else. I was taught abstinence only sex ed, and that didn't prepare me for the "hey, I'm having a great time doing x, but you seem to be reaching for y, but I'm not up for it right now" type conversation or for people trying to pressure me because I keep blunting my "no"s to avoid hurting their feelings, especially with weaponized self depreciation. And with this some basic emotional regulation techniques would be good to teach people.
But yeah I get that young people are often bad at seeing the fact that communication that had seemed clear to everyone resulted in a miscommunication and I find that in all aspects of life that's something we culturally need to work on being better about noticing when it becomes visible and starting a non-judgemental conversation to clear things up.
And all this with the fact that some people are going to keep going right up to the line, some people are going to not care about acting in good faith. Some people will pretend to be naive.
A carcereal attitude will assume all naivete malicious, and all grey areas blacker than the night. It will see my first story and aim to punish rather than to solve the problem. I think when we talk about consent we can easily fall into a carceral mindset. Especially when society encourages us to think that way about sex crimes and yet clearly is more concerned with using that attitude to reinforce existing hierarchies than to pursue justice or help victims.
This carceral mindset also leads to underreporting because most people don't want to respond to what felt like a single minor violation with what feels like disproportionate force. This can be especially true when the violator is marginalized in a way that's associated with disproportionate response or presumption of guilt in sexual violation (racialized people and transfeminized people especially) or when the appropriate response feels like it should be mental health based (the first person who hurt me just needed to continue DBT, the second probably should be kept away from society until she can get far enough along in some form of BPD treatment, but treatment is needed). And that's to say nothing of when the victim is marginalized in a way where they're presumed sexually aggressive against the violator.
I'm a believer in an attitude of restorative justice. First do right by the victim in proportion to the severity, then try to work to help the other party not do anything like it again. When approached naively it can very easily fail to the aforementioned malicious people, but when we prevent our communities from overly relying on any one person and we remain aware of the reality that some people aren't acting in good faith we can create systems that strive to find a balance and actually minimize harm and maximize happiness. And I've seen at the very least the beginnings of something like that in a kink community and I hope it works and spreads.
Sorry about the rambling. I'm tired as hell from the weekend and had some thoughts which snowballed.
They made the choice to ruin their life. Anything else is them evading the consequences of their own actions.
Some decisions will follow you for your entire life. You don't get a pass when you are drugged, fair or not it's all on you. Life is not fair, what you did wasn't fair, what will happen to you isn't fair, and that's the way of the world.
indeed!
But I will also say we should try to make life as 'fair' as we possibly can for all humans.
So if a human deliberately and maliciously did something awful to anither human they should be forced by the community to be very publicly known for what theu did and bs forced to live a 'very unfair' life as a result of their actions. And they should be constantly reminded by allmemmbers of the community that the reason why they are forced to live this very unfair life is becausr of what they knowlingly did that harmed thst person or those people. I see this as fair....
We should also treat the genocidaires who participated in The Bosnian and Palestinian Genocide the same way ....
But huumanity will never listent to us even though we are right about this😅🤷🏿♂️. They would rather live peacrfully next to literal genocidaires and pedophilic politicians 😂🤣
Death sentence is the only way to go.
Castration may be in some cases more effective and cheaper for the community?
No it would not. Harvey Weinstein doesn't have a working dick and still assaulted several women. Castration will do nothing.
Testosterone isn't what makes men rape people.
Ya. There was that one survey of rapists and people guilty of SA who admitted that it wasnt a lack of access to enough sex that made them committ the acts they did .Most of them admitted thst it was having power over another human being that was their main motivation. I am sure that this is still true.
I think they even found that SAers actuallt admitted that they had MORE sex than the control population and then STILL went on to commit SA...
So clesrly they dont care about their lack of access to enough sex and their hormones are not the reason t hey do what they do. They jsut do it causr they were raised to be an asshole or the communities around them have convinced them that being an asshole with control over other people's bodies is somehow a 'cool thing' ...
I like to characterize this as a direct consequence of their own bad decisions, and not something other people are doing to them. They chose to be shit and it only works out for them as long as other shits are there to protect them. Take away that privilege and they whine that they're being victimized when the consequences are no longer deferred.
it's the social contract solution to the paradox of tolerance all over again: you break the contract, you're no longer part of it.
I don't like social contract theory.
no? is there a better way to look at it?
Well the notion of a social contract arose concurrently with the rise of capitalism, and renewed campaigns to force women into spheres of domestic and reproductive labor.
So when talking about women's issues, I don't think Social Contract theory is exactly the gold standard
...that feels pedantic. call it an agreement or a covenant then. point being if you break the rules of society you can't be protected by them.
I don't think that's pedantic at all. Social Contract Theory arose in a particular place and time, under specific conditions.
Conditions which also involved a renewed subjugation of women in the name of that social contract.
The Hobbesian origins of the social contract are, notably, not merely an agreement, but an arrangement entered into by citizens, with a Sovereign who will protect them from themselves. Without a powerful state apparatus to create security, people exist in a state of nature where life is "nasty, brutish, and short".
This is historically inaccurate, and Hobbes was formulating his theories as a reaction to the English Civil War, which he was living through. But maybe you can see the parallels to this thread, which unnerve me.
People in this thread, in the same of an ostensible social contract, are desiring that state power be utilized to punish perpetrators of sexual violence in ways that are themselves also quite violent.
This feels emotionally satisfying, but it's an instinct that can hardly be trusted to protect the rights of women. When the social contract this violence is meant to enforce is being carried out by men, by a state populated by men, especially wealthy men, who run that state in their interests as wealthy men, I'm not sure it can be trusted to do what it claims to do.
That said, I don't think the solution is is to simply have more women cops, or what have you. Rather that any reasonable justice system ought to be rooted in genuine rehabilitation rather than the spectacle of punishment, and that this rehabilitative justice system he attached to a state project which is rooted, not in principles of bourgeois contracts, but in principles of solidarity, and providing all citizens with their basic needs.
Not only does this cut down on violence against women insofar as the material instigators of that violence are less common, but that it would ideally lift up women to leave abusive situations, and to speak up about them more readily.
Punitive 'justice' often prevents victims from coming forward because the abuser is often someone the victim also knows and loves on some level.
So long story short, social contract theory encourages punitive solutions to problems where punitive punishment is often a hindrance to real justice.
well today i learned that it's an actual theory. i was rather looking at it from the paradox of tolerance perspective.
Yeah I was gonna say, they ruined their own futures
Reporting to the police does not guarantee justice.
FBI crime data shows that law enforcement clears 26% of reported rape cases. In this data, “cleared” may mean someone was arrested or even that the suspect was deceased; it does not necessarily mean the perpetrator was charged, convicted, incarcerated, or otherwise held accountable.
The clearance rate directs our attention to the 74% of survivors of rape whose cases remain unresolved every year. That’s at least 125,274 people who reached out for justice they may never receive.
4 in 5 reported perpetrators are never charged with a crime.
For many survivors, reporting sexual violence means entering a system where the outcome is uncertain. A report may be investigated, cleared, closed, declined, or moved forward—but only a fraction of reported cases lead to criminal charges.
A 20-year review of sexual assault case outcomes found that just under 20% of reported rape and sexual assault cases are criminally charged.
This number points to one reality: many survivors report sexual violence without seeing the person who harmed them formally charged with a crime.
Being believed by police does not ensure accountability.
A 20-year review of reported rape and sexual assault cases found that 89% were “founded” by law enforcement, meaning police determined that the crime more than likely occurred.
But only 8% of reported rape and sexual assault cases ended in conviction.
In other words, police believed most reports, but very few cases led to the perpetrator’s conviction. Survivors can be believed and still not get the legal outcome they seek.
Justice requires more than recognizing harm. It requires systems prepared to move cases forward and support survivors through what comes next.
As someone who didn't get justice I appreciate so much how hard you keep talking about this. I try to be somewhat open about my experiences (both on here and IRL) to break the collective illusion that the police bother investigating sex crimes that aren't easy to prosecute, but the numbers are so important.
Also, I was going to say something about the rape kit backlog, but apparently it's being resolved and multiple states have cleared theirs.
I really appreciate you as well, your comments are always thoughtful and kind. I'm so sorry that you didn't get justice.
Also, I was going to say something about the rape kit backlog, but apparently it’s being resolved and multiple states have cleared theirs.
Thanks for spreading the good news! I hadn't heard of this yet :)
Holy shit...
Thanks for the data girlie, but also that is depressing...and scary. I honestly don't know what I'd do if that happened to me. This country's judicial system is known for giving people who rape CHILDREN, MULTIPLE TIMES just simply...probation. And it makes my fucking blood boil, cause I know I wouldn't get justice. Never mind me, the real victims don't. And that disgusts me...
Thanks Velma 💜
It is depressing, I know and I'm sorry :/
I do strongly believe that more knowledge, more discussion, more visibility will help bring these numbers down. More outrage. More calling out rape culture. More of us saying "What the Actual Fuck" each time a rapist is protected by those in power.
We have strength together.
If these were 25 year old black dudes at a house party the president would be lining up the televised firing squad.
There are some "mistakes" that simply disqualify a person from living a normal life. When it permanently traumatizes someone, that mistake should follow the person who made it for the rest of their life.
Yes. Or at least I hope so. Presumably there are no criminal judges here as they seem to be the most inclined to the opposing viewpoint.
It is insane to me that this gets hauled out as a reason for light sentencing over and over again. Having an impact on a person's life is literally the point, and here they are openly sidestepping it.
Surprising no woman: Men are more likely to say they trust how officials handle sexual assault
The survey, which was first shared exclusively with The 19th, found that women are 14 percentage points more likely than men to say they think elected officials have done too little to prevent sexual assault. Women are also 13 percentage points more likely than men to say they think college sororities and fraternities hurt campus culture, and 10 percentage points more likely to say they don’t trust sororities or frats to respond appropriately to claims of sexual assault.
Happened to stumble on this and it's incredibly on topic with the comments I've been fielding today on this topic.
these people have no problems ruining the futures of countless women and girls. the very least they deserve is the legal and social consequences of their actions.
Community Rules
You must post before you leave
Be nice. Assume others have good intent (within reason).
Block or ignore posts, comments, and users that irritate you in some way rather than engaging. Report if they are actually breaking community rules.
Use content warnings and/or mark as NSFW when appropriate. Most posts with content warnings likely need to be marked NSFW.
Most 196 posts are memes, shitposts, cute images, or even just recent things that happened, etc. There is no real theme, but try to avoid posts that are very inflammatory, offensive, very low quality, or very "off topic".
Bigotry is not allowed, this includes (but is not limited to): Homophobia, Transphobia, Racism, Sexism, Abelism, Classism, or discrimination based on things like Ethnicity, Nationality, Language, or Religion.
Avoid shilling for corporations, posting advertisements, or promoting exploitation of workers.
Proselytization, support, or defense of authoritarianism is not welcome. This includes but is not limited to: imperialism, nationalism, genocide denial, ethnic or racial supremacy, fascism, Nazism, Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, etc.
Avoid AI generated content.
Avoid misinformation.
Avoid incomprehensible posts.
No threats or personal attacks.
No spam.
Moderator Guidelines