this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2024
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The most middle of the road opinion on Israel-Palestine issue is the two state solution. It worked on Northern Ireland with the Good Friday Agreement and it should work between Israel and Palestine. Many scholars from both sides also want to use NI peace deal as the blueprint. Compromise is the key just like with Protestants and Catholics did in Northern Ireland.
The problem is, of course radicals from both Palestine and Israel do not want this because-- well-- they're radical.
This is false. Only Israel does not want a two state solution. Even Hamas accepted it in 2017.
This is what people mean with enlightened centrism. There are no two sides preventing peace. There is only Israel preventing peace.
I think we can track down several times two state option was on the table, starting as early as 68
Very cool and false. But now everyone accepts it except Israel.
What is the benefit from lying? I don't get it. This is all basic info.
It was also on the table at Camp David.
How does that prove they're lying about Israel currently not supporting it?
Right now they're wanting to just take the land after eliminating the people who lived there
Because I said it was on the table several times in the past. And they wrote:
???
Ok now explain why Israel does not accept the deal since Hamas does accept it.
I do not have to read any history to disprove your lies. I can open the news right now.
You are correct. Israel, in the present does not accept the two state solution. Hence why I was talking about the past.
Why was it rejected by PLO when it was on the table?.
Show me where Hamas is open to a two state solution.
What is the meaning of "from the river to the sea"
You are trying to change the topic so hard.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
The 2017 Hamas charter is openly available on the Internet, and it says it still doesn't recognise Israel as a state and strive for "complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea." This is not really a two-state solution. Two states recognise each other's right to exist if this is indeed a two state solution.
Of course Hamas is not stupid like the PA. They will not recognize Israel unless Israel agrees to a two state solution.
Your arguments are the most generic Hasbara so I am not assuming you are speaking in good faith.
Hamas stated "from the river to the sea" in that charter you yourself mentioned. That could not be any more ambiguous.
Yes of course they have the right to regain all their stolen land unless Israel wants to accept a deal. What is your point exactly?
Read this before typing your next comment
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
They've pretty explicitly been aiming for a Palestinian state in the territories occupied since 1967. And not just recently, proposals for a permanent ceasefire (which sets the first steps towards recognition and normalization of relations) with Israel under these conditions go back to 1999. Conveniently, both Israel and the US didn't find it necessary to respond.
Hamas still doesn't recognise Israel, do they?
Does Israel recognize West Bank as Palestine?
From the article you linked:
Exactly the point. Both sides need to recognise each other. This isn't a sports competition. It doesn't require a PhD to figure that one out.
The PA recognizes Israel. What did that give them?
OK you don't even know what the PA is. Consider not having any opinions.
So do you support Hamas taking foreign hostages who have no dog in the race? What is your opinion on October 7 attack?
No answer quick change the subject. Zionists only response.
If by PA you mean Palestinian Authority, while they seem to have been spineless, how is Hamas taking foreign civilian hostages with no dog in the race promote Palestinian cause? What is your opinion on October 7 attack?
Answer the question. What did the PA gain by recognizing Israel?
I answered the question already. While PA have been spineless, they did not kill civilians. But you and your ilk then seem to wilfully ignore what Hamas did to civilians. Now answer me, do you and the other guy support Hamas' October 7 attack? Have other independence movements in other places killed civilians? By supporting Hamas, do you and the other guy don't support two state solution in essence and do not recognise Israel's right to exist?
The PA have not made any progress towards Palestinian statehood. If anything, they've been complicit in the slow Palestinian genocide.
Is that a serious question? I'd rather ask you to name a major independence movement that didn't. War is a bloody affair. Here's the US revolutionaries massacring pacifists, for example..
So did Israel, by the way. To prevent prisoners being taken, Israel killed a non-insignificant number of their own people, soldiers and civilian.
I do not condone the actions of October 7. But I'm not deluding myself into thinking there was another way. How would you tell the Palestinians to struggle for their freedom from occupation and violence? Just in 2018/19, during the Great March of Return, thousands peacefully marched in protest, reminiscent of the civil rights movement or Ghandi's protests, to demand the displaced Palestinians be allowed to return. They were gunned down in the hundreds.
Are you asking Palestinians to just lay down and die?
If you want a more nuanced take than I can provide, please watch this video by an Israeli, living close to the Gaza strip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_1k7nSv1M
The Irish war of independence did not purposefully kill civilians. They only targeted British military personnel, and the British retaliate by killing Irish civilians, which proved to be to Ireland's PR advantage for international support for independence (you might mention the IRA in the 1960s to 90s, but that's a different story right after the establishment of the independent southern part of Ireland, in which the IRA activities had been condemned by the Irish government all throughout). And you mentioned Ghandi's peace movement for Indian independence, and yet somehow have a doublethink that it wasn't a major enough.
How about target military personnel only, and not kidnapping civilian hostages, especially foreign nationals with no dog in the race? It's not that hard to grasp.
Change the subject to October 7 quick. You got caught lying so you gotta pivot.
You claimed Hamas support two state solution, but then posted a link that directly contradict what you said (why do people post links they don't read and turns out it contradict what they say?) Now you redirect the conversation asking what two state solution had done to PA. While PA had been spineless, they did not kill civilians. Now, it sounds like you are misdirecting by trying to paint Hamas as pro-two state solution, but contradicted what you just said by posting a link that contradicted what you claim. Hamas is clearly anti-Israel and against two state solution, and it seems to me that you are too. Then now, does that mean you support October 7 attack?
No read the link
You also did not answer my question: do you support the October 7 attack?
How will creating two segregated ethno-religious states help anything?
What do you mean? The issue of Palestine and Israel isn't ethno-religious, it's nationalism in nature. There are still Muslim Arabs in Israel especially in the north where they live peacefully with Israeli Jews.
Yeah those radical Palestinians, not wanting half their home cut off for colonizers.
You could say the same to most modern states. Colonisation is wrong, but mistakes were made and recognised. It's impractical to deport people back to their ancestors' homeland. You can't expect white Americans and South Africans to return to Europe, or black people in the Americas to return to Africa. That's like trying to abort an already born baby. Go far back enough, and we all came from Africa and you might as well say all humans should vacate the rest of the world and return to Africa.
Countries who support Palestine also support two-state solution. Israel is there to stay and Palestine has the right to exist. It's simple as that. Frankly, any one who does not support two state solution are radicals. That goes for Israeli, Palestinians and outsiders who don't support two state solution. Someone mentioned Hamas 2017 charter, but it still doesn't recognise Israel's right to exist. And if Hamas really want a two state solution, they would not have taken hostages, many of whom are foreigners with no dog in the race. Is this really the act of freedom fighters? Had resistance fighters in World War 2 killed civilians? Last time I asked this rhetorical question to someone, the person said it's justified as price of freedom. If your answer is yes, then you are a radical and need time to think about your life.
Most people, specifically outsiders who don't even live in the region and feeling safe behind the rule of law, too opinionated on Israel and Palestine issue, don't really have a clue when they are prodded down to the kernel. They consume information from what I would call "fast food" sources and from biased ones, and thus adopt radical stances. Two state solution IS the solution.
You confusing migration with the colonialism. Colonialism disempowers indigenous peoples from determining how the land they lived on should be used.
Israel took the land and removed the people of that land from the land. Two states do not remediate the harm or re-empower the indigenous people to have a role in determining the use of the land. The extermination of the Israeli population is not the solution, but flooding the region with colonists in three separate ways and leveraging those people to steal more and more land was both explicit and implicit.
Have you ever looked at the two state solution map? It is insane.
Precisely why radicals on both sides need to stand down and recognise each other to create separate states. It's already too late to remove Israel as a state. Right now what should happen is Israel stop colonising West Bank and Gaza, while Israel has to allow Palestine their own state and thrive in peace.
When you're born in a country you're only a colonizer if you start conquering more territory.
The other centrist option is the zero state solution. Just glass the Levant and let any survivors fight it out mad max style while the rest of the world refuses to have any interaction with them. Unlike the two state solution, neither side had to trust, cooperate, or develop empathy and respect for the other. It's extremely expedient: any one of a handful of leaders could implement this solution within just a few minutes. And nothing says "this peace is permanent" like a charred radioactive hellscape.
My "lose lose" zero-state solution benefits over 8 billion people who will never again have to endure on the nightly news the bitching and posturing of these two mutually genocidal tribes.
Why would you bother spending all that time to write a whole paragraph of nonsense.. At least make it funny
But that is funny. Granted, I go for deadpan and maybe Lemmy isn't into satire, but it's worth at least a smirk.