this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2023
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I think the humans, elves, and dwarves were not only weaker/less armed/less trained at the time of the movies vs the initial fight, but also less united/allied
This. The war that culminated in Saurons initial defeat was literally called the "War of the last alliance".
What a shit name for a war tbh. "Yo guys this was fun, but this is the last time we're getting together" - elves probably. Or maybe they meant last as in "previous", but that's just asking for it to get outdated.
Wars can be renamed after the fact.
Or else everyone fighting in World War 1 would have had a lot less chill after the war ended.
"Wait, we have to do this again??" - traumatised veteran probably
Well in that case it makes sense to instantiate an array, but they really should've called it World War 0
No that was the 7 years war/French Indian war.
I'd say ww0 would be the Napoleonic wars
7 years war/French Indian war is the alpha version
Napoleonic ears is the beta version
The war to end wars.. If only it turned out that way.
Furthermore, you had the business with Saruman possessing Theoden, and Sauron manipulating Denethor into thinking it was hopeless etc
Is it realistic though to not have any advancement in technology or warfare in 5000 years? How could they be weaker than before? That sounds insane
Middle Earth's magic is in decay by the third age. The elves are literally leaving it, and there are way less of them. Men also only live to ~80 instead of living for hundreds of years like they did in Numenor. Middle Earth eventually becomes a world like ours.
I find it absolutely hilarious picturing Frodo trying to place an Amazon order, or getting kicked out of his hobbit hole because of inflation.
Goddamnit they gentrified the Shire
iirc Frodo sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses for a not great price and (fake) moves to a sketchier neighborhood where you had to lock your doors lol.
So Frodo being priced out of his childhood home isn’t far off.
To be fair that was because he wasn't sure he was coming back from his journey, not because he couldn't have gotten a good deal if he haggled. He also got it back for free after Saruman was killed, so pretty good deal in the end anyways.
Thanks for explaining
Furthermore men were no longer as "pure" in the 2nd/3rd age legends. The numenorians initially lived hundreds of years, were stonger had a more advanced civ. Etc. It all crumbled and then even those that survived and rebuilt mixed with humans that resulted in shorter lifespans, etc. By the movies it was basically the dark ages.
Decay and waning are the major themes of Tolkien's Legendarium. Magic runs out, great creations cannot be repeated, there is no progress and effort once spent cannot be regained.
No, not really. The trope is called "medieval stasis" (in TVT terms anyway) and is fairly common in high fantasy, though. The setting is supposed to be swords and horses, with notes of "technology bad" - which makes sense because what passes for tech in Middle Earth is mostly Saruman fucking around with orcs and that sort of thing.
As for weakening, a lot of that had to do with other things than just technological stagnation.
The war was so hard on elves that the entire race was in decline, and most of them had already fled Middle Earth for Valinor by the time of the movies. At least 2 of the greatest dwarven cities were destroyed...1 by a dragon and one by a Balrog. Humanity was divided, and the greatest human city had been without a legitimate ruler for centuries. On top of all that, the most powerful wizard, who should have been a bulwark against Saurons return, was a double-agent and had likely been undermining the other races for decades or longer. Middle Earth was basically the remains of the Roman Empire during the Dark Ages
That's the whole thing for the elves, and really the entire LOTR saga. Everything declines, fades, weakens and runs down. But the elves especially never "grow" or improve.
Thanks for the detailed description. The comparison is a bit odd though, from the roman empire to today its only 2000 years and I think some of the smallest nations could easily crush the roman empire today. I cant even imagine what will be in another 3000 years. But as others have pointed out, there seems to be no technological advancement in Middle Earth so I guess thats a major factor.
Well, how much had technology advanced in the 5000 years before the Roman Empire?
A lot actually if you really compare the technologies, also the romans could haveeasily beat any army 5 times their size from 5000 years before.
You don't even need 5000 years. Colonial forces regularly beat 10:1 odds against natives, and they very obviously lived at the same time. The battle of Ulundi saw the british win with 20 deaths, against a force of 15.000 Zulu warriors. Even the famous British defeat at Islandlwana saw the Zulu impi suffer tripple the British casualties.
There was some advancement in technology: Saruman invented bombs.
Especially considering how long some of the races live. Imagine how specialized in a specific field of science an elf could be when it can study a subject for hundreds of years.
Man literally described Feanor