this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2026
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[–] Marija_@lemmy.zip 3 points 2 hours ago

We can't let the BOWKYS win

[–] Kekzkrieger@feddit.org 22 points 10 hours ago (3 children)

We always think of not working as something negative, we should desire not having to work and machines giving us the opportunity to do so. But the system is scuffed and capitalism works against us rather than for us.

We need a new system where it's the goal to automate everything and then we only have to work a few hours a week and spend the rest with our loved ones, getting good at a hobby, enjoying life, singing dancing creating art all the fun stuff.

[–] quarkquasar@lemmy.world 8 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I'd be fine with that, as long as there was some academic aspect involved.

A bunch of idiots doing nothing for a long time isn't going to accomplish much of anything.

[–] SethW@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

You frame it with ambition as a virtue to be desired, but that's really not a given.. ambition is often super toxic. I can imagine a future of luxury automated space communism(tm) where the ultimate purpose is fulfillment. To be Zen is to release ones self from ego and put desire and ambition in context.

[–] NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net 5 points 8 hours ago

How about instead of automating everything to use machines that require electricity, maintenance and resources that wreck the planet, we make it so people worldwide only need to work four days out of the week at most while still being able to afford hobbies, holidays, and luxury items such as food that isnt poison.

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 5 points 9 hours ago

And even worse, one of the thing they desperately try to automate is the arts and the humanities...

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 5 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

I was at enough construction sites to know it would be quite trivial to automate at least laying bricks with some programmable robots. Less skilled workers are already taught on the construction sites how it's done, to help out masons. Same with roof tiles, you only need to look out for chimneys and edges.

And in our hellscape, it will just lead to forcing out a large portion of workers, make them work even more for even less, then a second round of layoffs can go.

[–] majster@lemmy.zip 4 points 8 hours ago
[–] TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works 11 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

Construction will be 1000% automated in the future. It's already happening slowly.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 16 minutes ago

The challenge is that the current approaches that are very novel broadly have proven relatively less useful for things like robotic manual labor.

The crux of the current AI craze is machine learning, which needs all the sensory information the human perceives that is relevant to the task and all of the things the human does in response in every detail. You can't tell a model to "just feel out how that screwdriver is going and make sure you don't strip the head or cross-thread it by mistake", it has no abstraction, it can only derive the most likely inputs from training data based on the sensory information.

This works reasonably well for vehicle operation, where the human generally only has sight and hearing, and generally only operates a few relatively simple controls, wheels, pedals, knobs. Even with that advantage, it needs a mountain of sample data. Millions of miles of drive data to work with and the result is still a bit janky, kind of like a human with about 3000 miles of total lifetime driving experience.

Once you want to extend this approach to anything involving a more comprehensive use of hand dexterity and everything you can feel, then it becomes a problem. If you can imagine yourself tele-operating a robot with VR headset and controllers to do a task, then they have a path to get training data. That's how a lot of these 'chore-bot' ambitions are trying to be realized, workers tele-operating for demos and training data, in hopes of getting enough training data to do things competently one day. But imagine trying to use a manual screw driver in that tele-operation scenario, making sure it's lined up, doesn't cross thread, and you don't strip the head. I couldn't imagine doing something even that simple in the real world without just being able to feel the screwdriver in my hand, to feel how the screw is going in or not going in, if the resistance feels right and consistent. If it's a situation that makes sense to use a driver, then probably could tele-operate it, but in cases where we need the finesse of a manual tool, those are going to be super challenging to address. Even using a driver, I always manually start it, either with my fingers or a screwdriver, and the driver comes in when alignment is well assured.

Now the long standing approaches are of course already a big factor in automating construction. The new approaches can also make it easier to take a task that was almost within the reach of robotic choreogrpahy but foiled by something like unexpected weight and wind, so the relatively newer AI approaches help make it easy to correct for deviations to provide a steady environment to execute the programmed movements. But the versalitility of a person with full use of their hands and feelings is going to be a tough road unless some breakthrough happens.

[–] bountygiver@lemmy.ml 10 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (4 children)

it will not be made by LLMs, because it's upmost important buildings are built exactly to spec. You will want a proper list of instructions for the machine, not something a model comes up with on the fly.

[–] forkDestroyer@infosec.pub 56 points 21 hours ago (4 children)

It was supposed to cure cancer and other diseases, not make us homeless and surveil us.

[–] polotype@lemmy.ml 23 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

"It" is very ill defined. The AI they are selling you was never supposed to cure cancer. It was meant to make money. The AI which cures cancers is of a completely different kind than LLMs and media generation. And it does not have any of the same drawbacks nor any of the same funding despite it's far greater usefulness.

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 1 points 9 hours ago

Yeah, and any "it will cure cancer" usually boils down to "uhmm, if we feed it enough training material, it will turn into a sentient superintelligence, which will cure cancer".

[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 9 points 17 hours ago

The AI which cures cancers is architecturally pretty similar to LLMs in that it's based on transformers and GPT in particular is also based on transformers (that's the T in GPT). It is also generative AI, you give it tokens that describe proteins and it generates folding structures. It's like an LLM except the tokens aren't words or syllables like in LLMs.

It's used very differently and the energy cost is a few orders of magnitude less (you can run it on a single H200 with 141 GB VRAM for ~9000 tokens or an A100 or H100 for ~5000 according to this university and it even has a slow CPU/IO heavy first stage preparing everything so they can minimize the GPU time in stage 2).

There is yet hope that such AI applications will eventually benefit from all the research that's been put into LLMs. Obviously not everything will carry over, but there may be architectural improvements to be made in research models too.

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[–] percent@infosec.pub 10 points 16 hours ago (3 children)

...this assumes that no one will ever connect LLMs to machinery, or generate code to run machinery (gcode, for example)?

[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 9 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I've seen some AI designed STLS. They are..not good

[–] percent@infosec.pub 3 points 11 hours ago

Yep, CAD and house building are still human jobs, for now.

[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 5 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Physical systems are a lot more expensive to train. It's questionable if they can safely finish buildings before some better new form of AI is invented.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 12 minutes ago

Also to some extent, impossible to train. If a person needs to feel the situation or it demands the full dexterity of the hand, then that is not going to be captured in training data. It's why the robots are being tele-operated, yes in part to demonstrate the mechanical bits work, but the tele-operation is the only way they can get training data. If you couldn't use a VR controller to do a task successfully, then they can't even capture the training data needed.

[–] maturelemontree@lemmy.zip 5 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

Just gonna plug it into the house building machine?

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[–] finallymadeanaccount@lemmy.world 77 points 1 day ago (21 children)

Nurses.

Watch nurses next time you're in hospital. They do 8 million things, unprompted, throughout their day. Robots would blow their power load and collapse if they had to do a tenth the things nurses do.

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 14 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

I think the plan is to replace nurses with just letting people die instead.

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

Nah, they have plans to replace them with realistic sexdolls instead.

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[–] DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 111 points 1 day ago (8 children)

In spite of the demonstration videos of robots running and jumping and carrying boxes and slowly sorting packages, none of them are anywhere close to being ready to handle construction jobs, or most manufacturing jobs. And, they can't design or make the machines that automate the processes.

It's a billionaire's dream that this is happening now, it's not. One of the major hurdles is power consumption, as we're all seeing while they build out these "data centers". Robots and computers cannot match the efficiency and self-sufficiency of a human. In a picture:

[–] Kanda@reddthat.com 1 points 7 hours ago

If people just stop eating food, we can use all the farmland for data centers and power plants

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 61 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Yep. I work in prosthetics, people tend to overestimate current battery technology and underestimate how much energy it takes to move around a couple hundred pounds.

Even with batteries that cost a small fortune, we haven't been able to create a lower limb powered prosthetic that can keep up with the human body for more than a couple hours.

There's a lot of hype about the humanoid robotics coming out of China, but most everything is just marketing science fiction. Once you factor in the initial cost, power consumption for processing data, multiple batteries per unit, and the massive amount of general maintenance...... It becomes pretty apparent that things aren't going to pan out anytime soon.

I build limbs out of reinforced carbon fiber and titanium and even those acquire a ton of wear in a relatively small amount of time. Any bipedal robot with plastic parts, made to do intensive labour is going to start falling apart almost immediately. The human body takes a ton of damage throughout the day as well, but it's self repairing.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 1 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (2 children)

The equation changes a lot when you start altering the assumptions.

Who says the robots have to have batteries? Human workers drag power cables all over construction sites. Why can't a robot be built that's smart enough to manage its own power cord? Power cord management seems simple compared to doing meaningful construction work.

The wear and tear is a legitimate concern, but fixed industrial robots have been operating for many decades. The wear issues are obviously solvable in the right context.

Keep in mind, prosthetics may not be the perfect analogy. We imagine these things as humanoid, but they need not be. You might have a drywall hanging robot that has suction cups to lift up panels and a screw gun to affix them. They might not even have legs. A welding robot could just be a welding tool on the end of a long boom arm.

There's really no need to even make general purpose robots. It's not like individual humans practice every trade. You could have trade-specific robots. A drywall robot, a plumber robot, an electrician bot, etc. Each equipped only with those tools needed to complete just that trade. And instead of mechanical hands, they could simply be mounted.

I would agree that humanoid battery powered robots are not likely to result in mass employment in construction any time soon. But if you start relaxing those constraints, the possibility for mass worker displacement exists. A robotic construction site need not visibly resemble a human one.

Who says the robots have to have batteries?

The market. How many cable powered mobile bipedal robots have you seen?

Human workers drag power cables all over construction sites.

No they don't? Have you ever been on a construction site? They have power cables, but they aren't attached to them as they constantly move across a construction site. They are used for a specific job then rolled up and taken to the next job. Dozens of people dragging their own powered chords across a building site would not only be dangerous, but a huge pain in the ass.

but fixed industrial robots have been operating for many decades. The wear issues are obviously solvable in the right context.

As I said in my original statement, laypeople such as yourself tend to underestimate the amount of force a moving object creates. Just engaging in something like jogging can have a ground force reaction of 3x your body weight, something like a small jump can exert up to 7x your body weight. That is with more pliable triplaner joints covered in soft tissues that help reduce that ground reaction by absorbing some of the force with higher degrees of range of motion. Something more rigid like a robotic foot/ankle or prosthetics actually experience much higher degrees of ground reaction force.

They might not even have legs. A welding robot could just be a welding tool on the end of a long boom arm.

The entirety of my argument was around humanoid robots....... That's why I said it would make more sense for a robot on a flat factory floor to have wheels or tracks. I'm not arguing against the idea of robots in general, just bipedal humanoid ones.

[–] NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net 1 points 8 hours ago

Human workers drag power cables all over construction sites. Why can’t a robot be built that’s smart enough to manage its own power cord? Power cord management seems simple compared to doing meaningful construction work.

I'm sure it seems simple from your desk

One thing: do you think that those power cables are permanently connected to the workers? Are you thinking about workers using extension cords for tools or the ones laying cable for the building, because it sure as fuck isn't simple to do either, which is why battery and petrol powered tools exist, and why the cableways are planned well in advance.

The wear and tear is a legitimate concern, but fixed industrial robots have been operating for many decades.

Only with maintenance and servicing by a human trained to see every potential flaw and monitor the equipment long term. Nothing, not even the most expensive equipment you can imagine, is without the need for regular maintenance.

You could have trade-specific robots. A drywall robot, a plumber robot, an electrician bot, etc. Each equipped only with those tools needed to complete just that trade. And instead of mechanical hands, they could simply be mounted.

Do you think that a construction site works the same way as a factory building cars? Just one long conveyors that shits out a fully built house? Workers move up, down and across the building dozens of times a day in a job doing multiple different jobs within their field, problem solving on the fly.

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