Had a roommate who was vegan and I tried it out as well (they don't shut up sometimes). At that point I learned that maybe I should just think things through myself when he told me wifi is bad and you can only use Ethernet cables. My friend, who has a doctorates in electrical engineering, and I had a lot of laughs; surprise the cables emit the same harmless radiation. It was fun when I got ratted out by my ex then for just running wifi without broadcasting for her dumbass to use the internet when I was at work. Haha punny right.

And the honey thing is such a hilarious argument. Like do you want plants to grow? Also watch the third Ghost in the Shell movie, where yeah crops get destroyed. But hey, we already are getting to experience that now, as in what's the next recall?

Same. I’m not vegan, but honey is obviously an animal product, and we don’t get their consent to take it (much like eggs or milk).

Further arguments like bees leaving behind some hives are just self-serving - feel free to eat honey, or even milk and eggs, but then don’t call yourself vegan, because you are not.

I think this kind of obscures the reason people are vegan in the first place. It's more than just a dogmatic creed against eating anything animal-derived.

For people who do it for moral reasons, the core issue is consent. Animals cannot consent to be eaten and cannot understand why they are born in captivity and made to suffer. Honey can be farmed with almost total freedom for the bees (can be, not necessarily always is), and bees also produce significantly more honey than they need so do not suffer from it being taken.

Others object to the fact that choosing to eat meat when you can reasonably choose not to, is semi-directly deriving pleasure from the death of an animal. Which is the same reason most people are disgusted by blood sports. Again, that clearly doesn't apply to bees and honey, because honey is not the flesh of a dead animal.

For people who do it for environmental reasons, beekeeping has no significant negative environmental effect, as long as invasive species aren't being used. If anything it can have a positive impact on local ecosystems if done responsibly (again, can).

Extracting honey fundamentally differs from other animal derived products. Take milk; cows are forcefully separated from their children and hooked up to automatic milking machines. They must be kept confined, and keeping them in this way is generally only economical if they are slaughtered for meat as well. There is fundamentally suffering involved, which is not the case for beekeeping.

All this is to say, if someone wants to strictly abstain from any and all animal products as a matter of principle, that's their choice! But the vast majority of reasons to be vegan aren't reasons not to eat honey.

Veganism/vegetarianism are both already series of arbitrary lines drawn, though, so, whatever.

They are not fixed lines. I can't speak about veganism but not eating red meat is vegetarism, leaving meat out except for holidays is vegetarism, eating fish but not meat is vegetarism. There is many way to be vegetarian. Even if there is one way that is much more popular and much more discutes these days. So I can also image non-fixed lines in veganism.

I think the argument is that bees will do it regardless of consumption so may as well have some nectar/bee barf for sweetener?

I've heard bees are more productive at making honey than they actually need. They'll make so much that they abandon a hive full of honey and start a new one just to make more.

Well put.

IMO, leather really isn't a big deal. It's a by-product of the meat industry. Nobody is raising and butchering cows specifically for the leather. If nobody used the leather, then the skins would just be thrown away ... or maybe ground up and used in dog food or something.

That sounds like slavery with.... extra..... steps