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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

Old man alert. Nerd alert. EXTREME snoozefest alert. You've been warned, continue reading at your own peril!

originally posted in /c/technology but was removed quickly, presumably because it's not considered a tech article or news. This is probably the better fit anyhow

For those who aren't familiar with the Brave browser, its history and controversies, or Gecko engine vs. Chromium engine (and loosely, Webkit), it's probably worth reading up on first. I'm writing this with the assumption that you know all of this stuff, because otherwise this post would be an even longer novel than it already is.

Brave recently released a paid version of their browser called Brave Origin which strips out a bunch of "features" like web3, AI, crypto, telemetry, etc.

It has a dedicated installer separate from the normal browser, except on mobile where the features can be batch disabled after verifying your license. You can also do it that way on the desktop version if you want to. Apparently a standalone android Origin app may be in the works, and the licensing system does seem to be relatively privacy preserving and not overly restrictive.

It's pretty damn expensive (except for Linux where it's free). And I must say that I feel like an outlier, because I strongly approve of this release and the direction I'm seeing the company take.

Let me state these right now:

  • Brave's controversies are real and they were completely unacceptable and they are a permanent mark on their reputation. It's no wonder many distrust them.
  • I'm fully aware that this still indirectly utilizes Google's work, and that Google creates open source projects, pumps a ton of money into them, gets a ton of contributers on board, and then starts introducing proprietary blobs which handicaps competition while effectively squeezing free work and investment out of others.
  • I love FOSS with all my heart.
  • I could add a bunch of disclaimers but I'll address them if I see something in the comments.

In a perfect world I would hate Brave's decision. In our current reality I think it's about the best move they could've made as a for-profit company outside of just creating their own browser engine. But there's a reason there are so few options for engines right now, and it's because it's really fucking complex to make one and it takes a fuckload of time, money, and resources. When somebody develops a genuine engine contender, I'll need to circle back.

Many of us use Firefox (or FF fork) with extensions. Many use ungoogled Chromium or other Chromoum forks. Obviously totally fine.

But there's a few issues with the current browser space, as I see them.

First is that the reality is, much of the web now treats Chrome (rather, the Chromium engine) as a first-class citizen. Some sites run significantly faster or more reliably on Chromium. Some sites require Chromium to fully function. For example, want to use the GrapheneOS web installer? You need a Chromium-based browser. Chromium has lots of features under the hood that the modern web utilizes. If this has never been a consideration for you, then this particular point is moot.

Second is that data harvesting and tracking is becoming wayyy more advanced than even some techies might know about - and let's be real, it's becoming pretty fucking exhausting to keep up with the growing pile of bullshit being thrown our way. It's also becoming harder and harder to stop. In both Gecko and Chromium you can, to varying degrees, install extensions, use browser forks, adjust settings, etc. to prevent much or even all of this. But the absolutely unfathomable amount of money being poured into violating your privacy needs hard, sustained, expensive work to fight in meaningful and new ways. One recent example I read about is brave implementing a new GPU anti-fingerprinting measure which is something I hadn't even considered before.

Third is that the Internet of today is just straight-up busted. Yes there are super cool projects in the works such as I2P that are trying to change that. But they're not reaching mass adoption any time soon. Most people can't even bother trying to leave for places like Lemmy and that's much less friction than I2P. I absolutely am not defeatist, and I fight this shit like the plague it is, but we also need to live our lives.

Fourth is that the way we use the internet varies. There's a lot of things we could do to make sure we're always maximally protected, but usually we find a balance. Stuff we daily drive, stuff we use when there's a specific need, stuff we're forced to use. If you're hardcore enough to do things to the max at all times then you don't even need to read this - you can browse in Mullvad Browser with (or without) a VPN or the Tor Browser, and supplement with OS and hardware privacy measures, etc... and you're likely better protected for it. But for me, and I suspect for many others, in typical daily use we want the right balance of speed, usability, privacy, and security.

Those "features" that brave bundles in are really shitty. But the mass market time and time again shows they'll put up with a lot of bullshit. And for most people you can just manually toggle the majority of these things off in the main browser for free, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes. These features, like it or not, pull in a lot more money than what most non-profits get when solely relying on donations. Hell, one of the huge things keeping Firefox propped up is their search engine deal with Google, not the donations.

Brave, like it or not, does provide some pretty compelling value in other places. First and foremost it's good to see people seeking out alternatives to Chrome for literally any reason. But they are admittedly super on-top of their Ad-blocking, anti-fingerprinting, other privacy features (like the shred tab button), and update cadence. They're the closest thing to a well-funded Chrome competitor that, unfortunately for our reality, runs on Chromium.

I get that it feels wrong to pay to remove features from your browser. But you know what, I'm sick of the micro transaction ad filled privacy invading bulls hit joke of an economy the internet has accepted at large. If it were up to me I would bring back freeware and shareware. Brave is the modern day WinRAR in an alternate universe where 7zip wasn't invented yet and the built in unzip still didn't support other formats.

I'm going to continue using my Gecko based browsers as I always have. But for when I want or need something from Chromium, I think Brave Origin is my new go-to. For me that's when I need certain hardware integration or I'm on a specific site, and chromium in my experience works very well with Android. One other thing I learned which to me is a definite plus, is that it was developed by the Ex-Ceo of Mozilla and creator of JavaScript (that was cool to learn, and that's one guy btw, not two).

For those who think this I'm suspiciously positive about Brave, I get it. I literally thought of brave as spyware until I read about Brave Origin. I think it's a sincere effort to correct course in a way that let's them operate at the level they need to maintain their product. For most people reading this who feel like trying Brave, they should just spend 5 minutes adjusting the browser settings. If you're clinically insane like me, and you actually resonated with this post, then maybe try it. And if you wanna buy it and chargeback or find a torrent or whatever, I don't really care.

I suppose this post is solely about Brave if we lived in a vacuum. But actually I think it's about sharing a mindset which I think can help the internet improve just a little bit, Brave or not.

Finally, let me end on a tangent about Alphabet Inc., mostly Google. That company is full of very smart ~~sociopaths~~ people who grabbed the internet by its collective ballsack, and while it may have felt good for a minute, they started squeezing them until you forgot what it feels like to have your balls flapping in the wind again. They made AOSP and then fucked us. They made Chromium and then fucked us. They did the heavy lifting for RCS and then fucked us. Google fucking sucks. And RIP to the word 'googol', you were robbed.

Honourable Webkit mention for Orion browser, and also their search engine Kagi which I fucking ADORE!

Tl;dr Brave Origin is alright, maybe try it, or don't.

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[-] Feyd@programming.dev 87 points 1 week ago

I don't know how anyone can trust brave after the shit they pulled. They told us who they are. Believe them.

[-] BrilliantBadger@piefed.ca 15 points 1 week ago

100%. It's almost like we haven't learned a single thing from the numerous examples of how we got here.

I try to live by that same motto - when they show you who they are, believe them. Its never been wrong, and it won't be with brave. Happily won't be part of building them up.

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[-] BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world 65 points 1 week ago

If youre willing to pay for a browser, donate that money to an OSS project that creates an actual private & secure browser.

It is insane to give money to a company like Brave for a browser that removes the stuff they deliberately packed in to their core browser to track people and make money.

At best what Brave are showing is that privately owned companies can't make private secure browsers because they are profit motivated. The only way privacy can happen is to remove the profit motive entirely.

[-] marcie@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Brave is a very secure browser with the correct settings. Grapheneos agrees with this take as well and consider it the second most secure chromium browser (though imo vanadium has it's own shortcomings in regards to AdBlock, brave shields is very effective). Read my other comment for an analysis

I wouldn't pay for it because that deliberately destroys most privacy benefits. Origin is only worth it on Linux imo. Brave mostly takes advantage of tech illiterate people so the tech literate people can secure their privacy and blend in to a larger crowd. It's not very ethical but they are the largest privacy browser as a result of being able to afford ad campaigns from this exploitation of illiteracy. I mostly dream of the day that someone forks it and makes it perfect on the backs of all their development money

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Surprisingly enough when using the Origin build of brave I saw no measurable difference in fingerprinting artifacts after reviewing the list from EFF's Cover Your Tracks and browserleaks.com

Your point about the Origin build reducing privacy via a smaller user pool was a huge concern for me, so those findings were a relief.

Also yes, many will toggle settings such as 'Ask not to track' (forget the exact label), to on, or adding identifying, uncommon, and regional extensions (kinda any third party ones tbh) - believing that they're increasing their privacy but unfortunately, significantly increasing chances of successful fingerprinting.

I don't blame people, it's such a cluster fuck and the wisdom of old has drastically changed.

[-] marcie@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Surprisingly enough when using the Origin build of brave I saw no measurable difference in fingerprinting artifacts after reviewing the list from EFF’s Cover Your Tracks and browserleaks.com

I haven't done a really big audit of the two yet to determine their differences in fingerprinting, but ostensibly its a different browser and has a much smaller userbase and it would be harder for you to hide your fingerprint. Linux is an even smaller subsect of a subsect and likely has only maybe a couple thousand users on Linux's Origin. If you don't care about that so much and stick to open source websites its not a very big deal if you're just trying to avoid big tech algorithms.

It is a pretty big browser at this point though. It is also generally more resilient to the shenanigans that websites pull to track you over other browsers due to their hardened containers between tabs. Firefox is a bad choice for this reason alone, the sandboxing is nearly nonexistent, even Tor Browser advises you to stick to one tab only. And for similar reasons, you should never install Brave through Flathub until Flathub-Next fixes the nested containerization issue that tampers with Chromium tab containers (170k people have done so regardless of this).

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yeah, the result was weird to me too. I've been meaning to message the devs to get a concrete answer but I've been lazy.

All the rest read, acknowledged and agreed.

(for anyone reading this in the spooky future, we're mainly discussing browser fingerprinting and other privacy technologies. Context matters, buckos)

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[-] lime@feddit.nu 49 points 1 week ago

interestingly, if your choice is to allow the stuff that calls home or pay to disable, that is illegal under the gdpr.

also the founder is still a bigot so i don't really want to give them money.

[-] kestrel7_7@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

Yep, we already had a word for software that spies on you until you pay the creator—“ransomware.”

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Didn't know that about the GDPR! That's pretty interesting you're right, haha. I wonder if they just don't care to officially market in the EU. From my past limited business involving the EU it was a royal pain in the ass... I'm not complaining though, it's just what you gotta comply with for the legal right to sell within it.

I'm not gonna run defense for the founder lol, you've got a reasonable position obviously.

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[-] kestrel7_7@lemmy.world 31 points 1 week ago

Dude. This is just ransomware with better marketing.

If it spies on you until you pay the creator, that's ransomware.

[-] marcie@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I don't really think it's that simple. They currently have the best security focused AdBlock of any browser (built in rust, default to the browser, works on a higher level than ublock origin, immune to upstream changes like manifest v3, can clear persistent data for specific sites, has containerization modes for changing browser fingerprint on the fly). I'm hoping vanadium or ungoogled chromium (security nightmare btw even though it has no startup telemetry, but I do think it's an interesting project for learning purposes) eventually adds brave shields to their browsers. The default settings aren't great but the right settings config clears out all potential telemetry and phoning home.

For what it's worth, the grapheneos team agrees with me and considers brave to be the second best chromium browser after vanadium for security purposes 🤷‍♀️

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 week ago

This is a much more concise and probably more effective way to explain a good chunk of what I wrote out.

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[-] Amaterasu@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Brave origin and the bloated one are open source. If you think is ramsoware, you can check the code, if you don’t have the skill look for the audit.

May I ask which browser are you using?

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[-] W3dd1e@lemmy.zip 21 points 1 week ago

Brave owns an ad network and that’s all I need to know to never use any of their products.

There are other comparable options that have better companies behind them.

Kagi’s Orion has not given me a reason to hate them except that it isn’t open source. They don’t sell your data and they don’t serve ads.

I can use uBlock on Orion,

[-] milbyte11@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 days ago

kagi has abandoned orion on linux and windows, and is open sourcing their codease. so, at least it is now? hope some brave volunteer will carry on with the vision.

[-] W3dd1e@lemmy.zip 1 points 4 days ago

It’s a start! This is just the desktop browsers though. I don’t think they are opening up the mobile browsers.

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Yeah, totally fair. We've all got a line and that's what I hoped to make clear in my post. I'm not pro-brave per se, I just happen to align with the path I see them taking with Origin.

If they go the Bambu Labs route or something, imma dip.

[-] Echo5@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago

Appreciate your post, nice to see people having level takes for something. I normally go through all my browser settings anyway during setup so a lot of the technical issues people were having I see as nonissue, UNLESS it gets added in during an update (where I wouldn’t notice) and is opt-out, not opt-in. It’s a good recommend for new users who aren’t super tech savvy and just need a plug and play.

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[-] Zerush@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I'm happy with Vivaldi since over 10 Years and Zen as second, both European Browsers (Norway and Spain) which don't sell my data and my soul. Ethics respect the user and transparency are very important for me and Brave don't offer it, but shady business models. Thanks

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Yeah man stick to your principles and if you've been happy with it for so long then it would be silly for you to try it anyhow.

[-] Zerush@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

That is the point. I tested almost all existing browsers since a quarter century now and the mencioned are the best for me and my needs. Simple philosophy, search, compare and finding something better, use it, more if it is an EU product.

[-] nkk@programming.dev 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Chromium-based browsers that are better than Brave:

Desktop - Helium

Android (GrapheneOS) - Vanadium

Android (Not GrapheneOS) - Titanium

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[-] kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 week ago

For example, want to use the GrapheneOS web installer? You need a Chromium-based browser.

This is because Firefox does not support WebUSB. It is not currently possible to make a version of the Graphene web installer that supports Firefox. Graphene doesn't get a say in the matter.

[-] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago

This is because Firefox does not support WebUSB

Ok, but why doesn't Firefox support WebUSB?

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[-] theherk@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

I have tinkered with Orion. It has a lot of promise, but it is still a bit buggy. I’m all Firefox since before it was Firefox, but I respect your assessment. I’m also looking forward to Ladybird, even though it also has its fair share of controversy.

Recent Firefox has been really good to me. Vertical tabs and new design are excellent; though I don’t seem to be with the crowd in that.

One small feedback that is meant less as a correction and more in case people are curious. Chromium isn’t an engine, it is an open source browser. The Gecko / WebKit equivalent here is Blink.

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[-] JenitalJouster@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

i’m on iphone currently which i know isn’t ideal but im riding this device out to its death until i make the switch to grapheneOS. that being said even with the lack of alternatives you wont catch me using brave ever, the ceo is insane, and they just had too many controversies. that 60 bucks is better spent donating to any other FOSS project.

[-] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I am a Firefox & forks diehard, but I need a Chromium/Webkit/Whatever based browser for a lot of corporate shit I have to access. So, I bit the bullet and bought Brave Origin. It doesn't suck. I wouldn't pick it as my main, but it's fine. Much better option than Chrome and Edge, that's for certain.

[-] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 5 points 1 week ago
[-] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 week ago

First thing I tried. I often get a message that it isn't supported.

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[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Totally valid use. Why is it that so many employers seem to have some system in place that somehow requires Chrome. Happened to me in the past as well.

[-] enchantedgoldapple@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 week ago

Appreciate your post very much. I used to use Brave as my primary browser a few years back but Lemmy basically guilt-tripped me into ditching it for Firefox even though it was working perfectly fine for me. Although now I have naturally grown accustomed to Firefox forks for my daily use, it's nice to see that I'll have another viable alternative if I ever need a Chromium browser.

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I'm happy to hear you appreciated it, thanks.

I get it, it's hard to broach a controversial topic or a nuanced topic online sometimes without things exploding in your face.

Lemmy seems pretty decent for giving these topics a chance if you make a sincere case and you cover your bases.

Even still it's not a guarantee. Honestly the most freeing advice (that I'm gonna give and that you didn't ask for) is to speak your mind if you wanna speak your mind. Recognizing that we're all different, that many arguments boil down to opinion, and that the up votes and down votes can't affect you - it's quite freeing.

Anyhow yeah I'd say use it if you wanna use it but I strongly recommend disabling all the shit that is there just to generate money at the very least.

[-] yestalgia@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

I was using a Gecko based browser on GrapheneOS until I recently learned that all of the frequent stuttering when scrolling that I was tolerating for months was related to the browser being anything besides chromium based!

So I'm back on Brave for my main browser across platforms even though I was wanting to support the open web with a Gecko browser.

[-] RodgeGrabTheCat@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Ironfox on my GOS takes about 1-2 minutes to load a webpage. Even with a fresh install and no mods done to UBO. That's longer than Tor browser takes to load the same page. No joke, I timed several pages with a stopwatch.

Until Ironfox gets their stuff together, I'll be using Brave.

Edit: Seems Ironfox's slowness is due to their DNS resolver. I turned that off and it's quick. Later today, I'm installing another profile in Librewolf so I can sync with Ironfox and ditching Brave on my Android.

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[-] eldyaitch@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Sad the internet trolls need so many disclaimers. For example:

  • I don’t really like tofu.

I appreciate your post because I switched to Brave maybe 5+ years ago and have been very pleased. I knew of Brave origin, but I had no idea it was free for Linux?! Super good news for me then. The first thing I do on a fresh Brave install is disable all of it’s creature comforts and crypto. By the time I’m done tweaking every setting, it’s as if my browser has short-term memory loss just the way I like it. I don’t need it to remember. I have extensions and bookmarks for things I want to keep track of. For this, Brave has allowed me to say “No” in all the ways other browsers weren’t.

[-] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Yep I don't really like putting disclaimers either but the trust level on the internet is most definitely the lowest it has ever been.

Wow so you've been on that Brave train for a while, huh? And yeah that Linux move is actually part of what made me think they're being sincere in their efforts. They probably know the Linux crowd isn't putting up with bullshit. I use Linux too and I still bought it because I do use other platforms and I'm at the point where I'm voting hard with my wallet, sometimes to my own detriment lol

"Short term memory loss" is a good way to put that feature and I really love it. I wish there was a way to exclude certain sites from that though.

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[-] artyom@piefed.social 3 points 1 week ago

Brave is not perfect but it does objectively have some privacy features that other browsers simply don't. Like syncing devices with a passphrase (no account), and it's also the only browser I'm aware of that has and continues to develop browser fingerprinting protections.

[-] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 3 points 1 week ago

Doesn't Firefox have fingerprinting protections which are disabled by default? LibreWolf enables them by default.

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[-] steelplatedmech@piefed.ca 3 points 1 week ago

I don't have a problem with Origin, since Firefox stripped of telemetry, ai, and sponsorships is something I'd be happy to pay a one time fee for even if I can disable it.

Having everything stripped from the installer by default from the official source is nice, and lot of projects don't get funding from most users. So offering something like this seems fine with me.

You don't have to pay for any of that, it's free with LibreWolf on desktop and IronFox on Android.

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this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2026
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