I agree with this, but I think we should have some kind of linguistic distinction between pride as in ‘I’m proud I’m not one of those inferior people’ and pride as in ‘I am not ashamed of my heritage’. Because having one word being used both ways has led to people with wildly diverging interpretations of the same sentence.

I still cringe when people still seem to hold onto some notion that America is the greatest thing ever. I'm not even talking about MAGA. Like people foolishly still believe a war mongering state like the US should forever be known as the greatest thing ever. Like legit. In their eyes, no other country has come close and no other country does anything just as good. The US is the only leader in anything in their eyes. They make it so dramatic about how much pride they have in the country when they've been fed propaganda all their lives. lmao

To them I say, it's not about U.S. vs the rest of the world. It's about us, the people, against the corrupt and the state. Like John Lennon says, "no country to die for". It's just about people man. Fuck the state. Fuck your borders bullshit.

I agree with this 100© but Netanyahu would call this line of thinking anti-Semitism

It's the last thing you can be proud of, if you have nothing else.

Pride is the wrong word. You are grateful to be born into a certain country like you are grateful to not have a predisposition for cancer

This is why I'm always confused when people get upset with me for not being "patriotic" or whatever. The state and country I'm born in is just dirt surrounded by water. I could not care less about it. It's just where my mom plopped me out at. Everything else is arbitrary nonsense.

When people have nothing to be proud of they will take anything they can get

Understanding nationalism from a left perspective requires that we understand what a nation is. In Marxist theory, a nation is a "historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture." Nationalist movements are therefore struggles for sovereignty. Nationalism must be understood from its relation as a nation. Nationalism of oppressor nations and nationalism of oppressed nations are both struggles for sovereignty, the core difference being that oppressor nations have already gained the ability to determine their own future, and this progressive movement turns into its opposite, supremacy.

This is why we can say that the nationalist movements in Palestine, Ireland, indigenous Americans, and so forth are undoubtedly progressive in gaining that right to self-determination. This is also why we can say that Euro-American nationalism is a supremacist ideology. This is why nationalism can be difficult to understand in relation to internationalism, but the simple truth is that an internationalist stance requires the right of self-determination for all nations. This is the bedrock of internationalism and a greater international human identity. It isn't an erasure of culture and national identity, but a celebration of all of them.

TL;DR: nationalist movements in oppressed nations like Palestine good, nationalist movements in oppressor nations like the US bad.

For me, that's the différence between a nationalist and a patriot: the nationalist thinks their country is the best, the patriot wants the best for their country. A patriot will see the flaws in the system and will try to correct them for the benefit of the community. A patriot will be happy when other people will want to join the community to make it better, or to change it. A patriot is happy when the community evolves, and will work for it. A patriot can be a foreigner initially. Doesn't change anything. The nationalist cannot accept change. Therefore, they don't accept anything that can make their community evolve. They don't realize their country changed in the past, they idealize a vision completely unbalanced of history and cannot see the flaws in the system.

Unfortunately today, the patriot is a nuisance and the nationalist a useful tool for the nefarious people which wants just more power and more money.

It's easy to sell something to someone who thinks nothing should change, it's hard to contempt someone who wants to change a system.

it's tribalism, and I hate to say it because people throw this phrase around too much but I genuinely believe it's low IQ behavior

People will apply this to something like gay pride, black pride, etc. But those forms of pride are about standing in opposition to prejudice, oppression, and hardship, where the inherent aspects of your existence are demonized, stereotyped, or seen as lesser. The pride is in making it through the world and accepting/celebrating yourself despite all the hate and dangers others force onto you.

Having pride in being part of a marginalized group isnt about feeling superior to other groups. It is about rebelling against those who feel themselves superior to you.

I see a lot of wishy-washy, half-baked ideas here trying to make "patriotism" sound like a reasonable alternative but no. If at any point the heads of the country, or even the whole population of it stood for something unreasonable and/or immoral, would you still be a "patriot"? It's all very ad-hoc, and extremely unwarranted if you're in one of those settler/ colonial/Imperial vassal places. The only thing that can unite us in earnest is our beliefs and convictions, and those divisions and connections run through the whole world. Of course, it's much better than idk, violent jingoism and white supremacy, but it's still nonsensical. At most, you can just say you appreciate/enjoy/can't complain much about being X/facets of X/being born and raised in the land of X (and even then if you haven't in earnest been around Y and Z people you can't even compare it. Maybe it actually would've been better to be born in the Y community, and that can be acknowledged even if it can't be changed). Any sort of "pride" makes no sense in this context, besides whatever pride you feel by making your community/country better. If you can't shake off the feeling that seeing things this clearly is somehow a betrayal to your country or people, or that there's something immoral about it, trust me when I tell you you're still a bit too propagandised to see it for what it is.

This is true but it also makes sense why youwould wanna be patriotic(not nationalistic, important distinction). Youre born somewhere, and you dont have a choice in that, but you still grow up with people arround you who have a certain culture, who raise you, who youre freinds with. You can associate with them and try to improve your community without pushing down others. I think this is the concept patriotism is based on. Also i never get these posts, do these people truly not understand how a racist, or a nationalists mind works? The same way you should be able to put yourself into the shoes of someone recieving hate, you should be able to see from the perepective of the one hating on others. I guess that explains why there are so many asinine approaches to politics from both sides. Dont get me wrong, i hate the right, but the reason theyre outplaying us is because they can see from our perspectives better than we can see from theirs, which is very dissapointing when we should be the empathetic left. Something might not make sense but you should still understand how someone gets to that conclusion, especially since i have a pretty big problem with this specific qoute. Two of these groups, irish and italian, have recieved a lot of discrimination. Wouldnt you be proud of who you are if they discriminated against you, wouldnt you fight back? Its the same with being queer, its not a choice, thats exactly what were trying to communicate to the right, yet you have pride for the exact same reason italian and irish americans have pride, to show you are here. This qoute is basically this guys sufferring, or hate or something similar packaged in a way that makes it look smart instead. And im not blaming the guy, something drove him to react this way.

Ahh, after reading hes irish american. See? He shouldnt be pride to be born irish, instead be proud of his people and himself for going through discrimination. Today this is much less of a thing but being born in 1937 couldnt have been easy in an irish immigrant family. Theres always more to the story is all im saying. Nuance, you know.

Eat shit Lee Greenwood and go fuck yourself.

I don't really get the "being proud of our history" part. Some other people did it and it's not your achievement in any way. But I do get enjoying your rich historical and cultural heritage in the form of museums, archeological sites and cultural events.

For example, as a dual national, I never liked the polish Christian traditions which are all about martyrology and are mostly sad and boring but I do enjoy Spanish traditions which are mostly about just having fan. Spain also has richer history with traditions, language and cuisine spanning way more different cultures. I wouldn't say I'm proud of it but I do enjoy it.

There is a utility in having some national pride, in the same way as there is in having some pride in your place of residence. If you feel some pride for your home, you are more likely to invest time and resources in caring for and improving it. If you don't care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.

Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.

Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US's worst international blunders. These criticisms are valid and true, but they are not the entire truth and the selective lense is intentional.

A common response to self-loathing is a defensive, reactionary display of narcissism.

While i agree, many people are proud of their genetics, or their team, or or or

Have you ever been to a cultural parade, even when you're not part of that culture? They are so fun, especially if you're only being accepted as the culture for a day or so. Some cultures are much more family oriented too, so they're going to understand each other and rise above most things together. I get it.

This is such neoliberal nonsense. I feel for you USians but to just attack the struggle for Irish independence is not the way to go. Please read a history book.

Does that count for gay pride, though?