You gotta appreciate the irony of Reddit demanding free labor from mods of a sub that is about labor abuse.
this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2023
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More ironic that the mod team agreed.
They should reopen and just stop doing any moderation beyond the bare minimum to keep the sub.
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It baffles me that they even used the word "expectations." Like... 'ma'am... I am not being paid. Do not have ANY expectations.'
The longer this goes the more it reads like the onion.
The utter irony of r/AntiWork being forced to reopen is astounding. Strike broken. Union busted. It's over.
they are toast, forcing these open will not save them long term. the fact that they had to go here shows how effective this has really been.
no one expect them to close doors tomorrow, and I still think they IPO, lots of dumpster fires IPO. Will still be a dumpster fire and at some point it will be "huh, you still go to that trash site"?
Its happened to ever corp social network.
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They weren’t forced to reopen. They were threatened with being replaced. Who gives a shit? One can’t even call this cowardly. Who fears losing an unpaid job? This is just pathetic. So much for solidarity. The r/Videos mod team called this from the beginning. They’re prepared to go down with the ship. Of course this would be the natural outcome of a prolonged strike. This is really separating the performative virtue signalling from those who care.
I’m not and never have been a mod. But can understand the conflict of not wanting to reopen but if you don’t you lose a position that you’ve spent a lot of time and energy. They’re probably passionate about their community. Giving that away and seeing someone else destroy all your hard work? Glad I’m not that invested.
It's called the sunk cost fallacy. "I can't possibly quit because I've put so much time/money/effort into this."
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Don't forget the addiction to power. Yes, there are all kinds of moderators.
This is such a common attitude, and it's nonsense. Non-moderators think moderators are "power hungry" when they ban people. While there are some few exceptions, moderators don't ban people because they like power. Moderators ban people because they're disruptive and causing trouble.
What moderating is really like, part 1
What moderating is really like, part 2
99% of the people I've banned who were not obvious spammers or bots are one kind of troll or another. Usually they fall into three categories: Concern Trolls ("But I'm only saying this for your own good!"), Factoid Trolls ("I'm here to tell you the TRUTH!"), or Disruptive Trolls (dick picks, offensive memes, slurs and racism, etc.).
Roughly 1% of the people I ban apologize for their mistake, remove their rule-breaking content, and either follow the rules or quietly leave.
I regularly get called a power-hungry mod by the crybabies who get angry when they aren't allowed to break the very clearly stated rules, and repeat their offenses after getting first, sometimes second warnings. They run to other places and go try to stir up other crybabies to come and cause the same kind of trouble.
Moderating is tireless and endless. Jerks don't get banned for saying "Dur the mods suck! Free Speech!" Jerks get banned because they think the rules are for other people, or because they think that the rules are wrong so that means they don't have to follow them.
Thank you for coming to my Moose Talk. (Ted is taking a nap right now.)
Different platform, but exactly the same deal moderating Twitch chats. I think my favorite insult that I've received was that I was personally "the downfall of Western civilization."
The upshot to those disruptions happening in an active chat like that though is that everyone sees how much of a knob that person is being and is perfectly happy to see them gone.
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"I regularly get called a power-hungry mod by the crybabies who get angry when they aren't allowed to break the very clearly stated rules, and repeat their offenses after getting first, sometimes second warnings. They run to other places and go try to stir up other crybabies to come and cause the same kind of trouble."
Isn't there something about this in the rules/code of conduct or something?
I've seen the vitrol that mods get called on the daily.
Why isn't Reddit taking concrete action against this?
I see it as Reddits obligation to educate the community about moderators and what they do on the daily.
It is in their best interest to of course not do the above because otherwise moderators may actually feel like an important part of the eco system.
And Reddit would not like that.
Officially? Yes, it's all against the rules. It's against the rules to harass moderators. It's against the rules to go attempt to rile up others to cause problems. It's against the rules to have subreddits dedicated to trying to convince people to go to other subs and harass moderators.
In reality? It has to be very persistent for the admins to take real action. There have been cases where subreddits have been cautioned or (rarely) sanctioned for allowing or encouraging their users to go visit other subs to harass. There have been cases where harassers eventually get their accounts banned, but not before Reddit has smacked them on the hand and said, "No, no! Bad Redditor!" 3-4 times first. More likely, reporting this kind of crap gets you the response, "We don't see a problem."
Part of that problem is that a lot of report responses are automated, and you have to know how to appeal and get the attention of humans to even have a sliver of hope that one of them might take action.
It's a case of too many problem children, not enough human staff to deal with it.
It's against the rules to create account after account to follow and harass a moderator for over four years but 8? 9? of his alt accounts later, they still haven't been able to stop this one nutbag from Australia who gets his jollies by following me around Reddit to disagree with everything I say.
I see it as Reddits obligation to educate the community about moderators and what they do on the daily.
Reddit thinks moderators are as disposable as napkins.
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I love how the many users are quick to call mods power hungry. Some of these people spent hundreds of hours building up a subreddit and maintaining it and you call them power hungry because they don't want to lose what they worked so passionate for - for free.
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Not only that but handing over the sub to people who might be power-hungry and/or abusive. Hard to see a community you've worked for be taken over by those who don't care about it.
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They were not forced, they were pressured. The mods caved to the threat of being replaced, showing everyone that having that little bit of power was always their main priority. I didn't expect more from dog-walkers.
Yes everyone against labor abuse is a dog walker basement dweller.
Not everyone, but those mods definitely are.
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Right, but what’s their alternative? While they’re still mods they can still affect some level of change. If they completely cede to Reddit’s admin, they have nothing.
While they’re still mods they can still affect some level of change.
If they can't endure even a 1 week strike on a social network then they cannot affect any change anyway because they are a completely powerless farce. Imagine how quickly they'd fold if this were a RL thing with actual consequences beyond their moderator position.
I mean have we forgotten when last year the mod of that sub went to a live interview and the whole subreddit was so ashamed they had to distance themselves from it? I think the day later they said nobody will interview anymore and they removed the person as a mod and wiped any trace of it? They are a joke, this is just another event that proves it.
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I like what /r/pics did.
We – the so-called "landed gentry" – appreciate that Reddit is made great by its users. Uncompensated contributors populate the platform's many communities with their content, just as volunteer moderators keep spam and bigotry at bay. Since neither we nor Reddit would be here without you, it was only fair to let you determine what /r/Pics should include... and you overwhelmingly chose to feature only images of John Oliver looking sexy. (Seriously, the final vote was -2,329 to 37,331.)
As such, /r/Pics will henceforth feature only images of John Oliver looking sexy.
It's great, have a scroll. No intent to derail, here's the thread on !reddit@lemmy.ml: https://lemmy.world/post/206467
I wonder if a similar stunt would have been possible for /r/antiwork. Any ideas? How about: "You must rest on weekdays. Posts and comments are only allowed on weekends."
I like your idea, but also combine it with the idea behind CatsStandingUp, but each post must be the exact same image, with the exact same title. Make it as boring as possible.
To add extra spice: Everyone who posts or comments gets automatically banned by automod, as participation is working and against community ideals. I have no idea if that breaks any site rules, but it would discourage participation.
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That’s brilliant, hope to see Reddit turn into nothing but a slew of super-specific protest posts.
You'll love what r/steam did. They were forced open and from what I hear users are now exclusively posting pictures of water vapor.
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Why don't they move here? They are being exploited there anyways
And give up their power as mods of a large subreddit and starting again from scratch? Most of them probably aren't willing to do that.
I'm a mod of /r/Disneyland, and we recreated our sub over here on Kbin ( @Disneyland, https://kbin.social/m/Disneyland).
The issue is that we had 500k subs on Reddit. That sounds like a lot, but in reality it equates to about a dozen posts a day, maybe less.
Over here on Kbin, we almost have 100 subs - and I'm really proud of that! - but 100 subs is basically nothing. A fraction of a percent of people are actually content contributors, and the whole community rests on them. Then combine that with the fact that we're a niche subject (not some general thing like "video games") and that impacts what can be contributed.
On top of that, the magazine is fairly empty. Not barren - we have a few posts - but it certainly looks and feels empty. And because it's empty, nobody wants to post, which means it stays empty.
Compare that to Reddit, which has a very dedicated community for us. Not a massive community, but certainly a passionate one. We care about our community; we've stewarded it for years. All of us mods started out as members of that community (the subreddit founder is long gone), and we're all unpaid volunteers that want to keep that community healthy.
Reddit threatened to take it from us and give it to another mod team for a related Disney subreddit that played along with the admins. The issue is that multiple Disney subreddits have, uh, issues with those mods (which has been the case for years to the point where explaining the history is part of onboarding for a lot of Disney mods).
So the issue was reframed - either we reopen our sub on our terms... or we stick to our guns, force Reddit to remove us, and get replaced by a different mod team. This other team is known to be harsh about banning users for any kind of dissent, they abuse their mod powers to spread anti-vax nonsense all over their "non-political" subreddit, they have multiple subreddit drama threads talking about their actions, they've been gunning for all of the Disney subs for years... and they'd immediately jump at the chance to reopen the subreddit we've worked hard on so they could run it their way.
When you look at it like that... there's only one real choice. I hate Reddit, but our community doesn't deserve that.
I realize saying "we choose to keep our powers for your own good" makes me sound like, oh, I dunno, "landed gentry"... but users don't see that side of moderation or Reddit drama, and frankly they shouldn't have to.
So we opened and are taking the abuse. Users are torn between "you caved, scabs" and "told you this was a useless gesture, how dare you take my sub away". Neither one is great.
But there's more to it than what appears on the surface, and frankly that's true across a lot of subs.
I do not understand these posts at all.
It sounds like that you are just not interested in building a new community and rather go back to the ivory tower that is reddit.
If that is so just say it.
What are you gonna do when Reddit is gonna implement the next thing that would be unbeneficial to the community?
If you know that the possible new mods are asses, why not call reddits bluff?
Let them see what good moderation is about and what happens when you don't care about the good moderators for years.
You are probably afraid that a new mod team would do just a good a job as you and you will be forgotten after a day. Then of course what would be all this for if change wouldn't happen? Other questions you are asking yourself can entice; Is my moderation position really that hard to take over? Are the changes really affecting me?
You are probably afraid losing something that you put your own time and effort in and the idea that someone would ruin it or just take your place is a situation you are not ready for. I would understand all that but then why black out at all? Rigorous changes after 48 hours only happen in Disney movies, you should know that.
Sorry to say but most of the community does not give a damn about moderators and you know it. They care about the content that is provided to them that is what they are hooked on.
This only shows that Reddit has full control over you and your actions and they can do whatever they want to whomever they want because you will bulge the first second they threaten to take your moderations position away.
For the life of me I cannot understand why people would gladly be providing money in Reddits pockets, while the community and moderators don't see a penny, don't see any user improvements, get constantly lied to, while getting bend over on every turn.
I am gonna say this again; I thought moderators actually got paid by reddit. I was baffled when I heard a few days ago they weren't. I thought and still think it would be absolutely ridiculous to invest your time and efforts for a profit making company for absolutely nothing in return.
In the meantime Steve huffman is spitting in your and the communities face every step of the way, not caring about you or the community at all.
I have a whole lot of respect to the people who gave up their mod positions just to make a stand for themselves.
I really don't mind if subs stay open, if you like to moderate be my guest. If you don't agree with the blackout, sure.
But the posturing about the greater good for the community, just don't.
Alright, one point at a time:
It sounds like that you are just not interested in building a new community and rather go back to the ivory tower that is reddit.
If we weren't interested, we wouldn't have founded the community. We're now maintaining two. The Disneyland subreddit links to Kbin in its sidebar. While I'd agree that Reddit is somewhat of an ivory tower, bear in mind that it's a community we've cultivated for years and we have a sense of responsibility for them.
What are you gonna do when Reddit is gonna implement the next thing that would be unbeneficial to the community?
Link here, like we already are. We've never participated in "Reddit drama". The fact that we took a stand as-is was a big step for us. We even committed to "indefinite", not just 48 hours. It wasn't effective, and we caved after 110 hours or so. Lessons learned.
But when (not if) Reddit shoots itself in the foot, we can have a community here ready for them. Right now it's small. To a certain extent, that's positive... the mod tools on Kbin are lacking. But it's not like we're abandoning the community here.
Spez is taking inspiration from Elon. He's going to do more dumb things. He's already talked about the dumb things he wants to do. There'll be other waves of migration, and we want to make sure that anyone who still wants the space they had (but doesn't want to use Reddit) can have a home.
If you know that the possible new mods are asses, why not call reddits bluff?
Do you think Reddit cares about asshole mod teams? Honestly. Remember, the "new mods" already run a major Disney subreddit. If Reddit cared about them being assholes who regularly wind up on SubredditDrama they would have taken action already.
Also bear in mind that I am one person on a team. There are others who work alongside me that have voices which should be heard and respected. To that extent, a lot of them didn't want to even risk it. I don't have the authority (by design) to unilaterally override them.
Sorry to say but most of the community does not give a damn about moderators.
...
I thought and still think it would be absolutely ridiculous to invest your time and efforts for a profit making company for absolutely nothing in return.
Absolutely correct. We're the unpaid jannies, the suckers who need to touch grass. That's not sarcasm, btw - I really do think that. It's absolutely ridiculous that we do it at all, especially given the amount of abuse we get from... well, basically everyone.
Spez doesn't care about our users. We know that. Frankly, there are a lot of places on the internet that are run or controlled by those who don't care about others.
So spaces that do care are important. You can call it posturing, but it's the truth. If we didn't care, we would've quit a decade ago.
We care about making our community a welcoming space, a little home on the internet. We care about stopping trolls that see the word "Disney" and want to cause as much damage as possible.
It is absolutely ridiculous to care. Because you're right - the site doesn't care. We are giving them value and expecting nothing. They depend on us to care, and they treat us any way they want because they know we're too goddamn soft to let harm come to the communities we try and protect.
But there are people who need these little rest stops. They need a place to post a picture of their Mickey Mouse balloon, or their engagement photo in front of the castle, or their debate about what on earth the writing on some poster says. It makes them happy and there's a whole blossoming community there, of happy people in a safe space.
What on earth do I even get out of my "posturing" otherwise? A stupid green badge that says "please yell at me?" I don't even get that badge outside of my sub. I'm not a powermod; /r/Disneyland is the only major sub I mod. The only others I run are teeny tiny, maybe 600 users. We're not a Reddit partner community that gets wined and dined.
We're just some stupid, terminally-online folks who need to touch grass. Doing unpaid labor for an abusive place that doesn't care, promoting a different abusive monopoly of a company that doesn't care. All to make some little virtual people on the other side of a box (who also hate us) happy.
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Sounds to me that sometimes the community needs to actually see the consequences of mods leaving? Because a lot take the attitude of who needs mods just open it up.
And sticking the the status quo doesn't even give the possibility of breaking it potentially leading to changes.
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I still think Reddit forcibly removing the head mod of r/Piracy is peak irony. They can't not have people discussing copyright infringement, even through in years prior they were threatening to ban the community.
damn, the employees (probably directly from spez himself) are picking the "troll" route for reopening. r/piracy and r/antiwork? they aren't even big ones like r/videos!
I wonder if it's some strategic bullshit to try and scare people. Fuck it, most of those people are the kind who would enjoy using Lemmy anyway.
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It's like, come on AntiWork, you had one job. Or none job. You know what I mean.
Unreal stuff. It looks like spez thinks the PR cannot get any worse so he may as well go full scorched earth.
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Antiwork mods should quiet quit. Sit back and let the house burn down.
oh, the irony
Irony
Mods are forced to work
Nah it's just power addiction. They can stop any time.
You keep repeating that. Just how many times have you been banned on Reddit? I'm guessing a lot.
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Pretty sure most of the more anarchist mods got pushed out sometime after the whole Fox News debacle already and since then the content has become less spicy too. Watering all that down again, what is even left? "Please master spez I would like to slightly criticise a corporation, am I allowed to do this or is it against the guidelines and duties of moderators?" or what.
Well, it is all for the best, free thinking people will migrate and rebuild, the rest I won‘t miss.
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