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submitted 12 hours ago by Bad@jlai.lu to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world

[a study paper is shown, with some of the text legible]
STUDY RESULTS
GIVING POOR PEOPLE MONEY REDUCES CRIME MORE THAN GIVING COPS THAT SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY
CONCLUSION
If you want to reduce crime, take care of your community's primary needs instead of funding cops so much

[an orange character in a suit has stamped a paper labeled MORE POLICE FUNDING BILL, and is grinning]
Heh, you think we don't know?

https://thebad.website/comic/scientific_policing

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[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

So when I accuse you of vibes-based reasoning, what I mean is deriving your understanding from the opening paragraph of wikipedia, or equivalently from dictionaries, and having no knowledge of conservatism being a reaction to enlightment philosophy (specifically liberalism). You clearly haven't done the bare minimum of work to understand conservativism, so what makes you so confident that hierarchy is the heart of conservativism? If you read even a little bit you'll be confronted with various other potential hearts like wisdom, community, history, social cohesion, stability, and tradition. Stop trying to defend your unexamined position, take the critique, and do some reading. It's a very rich history with lots of challenging ideas and tons of wonderful debates that help us understand where we are today and lay the foundation for how to move forward.

[-] jtrek@startrek.website 1 points 4 hours ago

A dictionary is a fine place to find the definition of something. An encyclopedia is a reasonable resource for a high level view. Wikipedia specifically is open for edits. You are empowered to change the article, if you believe it is mistaken.

Do you have some books you would recommend?

Do you identify as a conservative?

If you read even a little bit you’ll be confronted with various other potential hearts like wisdom, community, history, social cohesion, stability, and tradition.

Some of these are nicer ways of saying "hierarchy"

It’s a very rich history with lots of challenging ideas and tons of wonderful debates that help us understand where we are today and lay the foundation for how to move forward.

I find this hard to believe given the conservative party in the US, the republicans, have atrocious positions on every policy. It is a party of white supremacy (hierarchy) and the rule of capital (also hierarchy).

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

American conservatives are Liberals.

Just read John Locke and Edmund Burke. They're good starting points. Note how on the one hand you think Conservatism is about protecting the monarchy and on the other hand you think American Republicans are conservatives despite their focus on private property, profits, corporate profits, and tax loopholes for the rich. You can't hold both of these views if you actually engage with the ideas.

Free market capitalism is Liberalism. Social welfare was originally Conservativism. Progressive Liberalism adopted social welfare after a century of the brutality and abject poverty of Liberalism and it was adopted insofar as it lessened the chance of a popular revolution.

No, I do not identify as Conservative. I don't think we should defend traditional European monarchies and the system of nobility. But neither do I identify as a Liberal. I do not think private property should be the source of power and authority, I do not think democracy should be limited to managing the affairs of the various factions of oligarchs and how best to repress the masses. I identify as a Communist - I believe in the abolition of private property, in decolonization and anti-imperialism, in active repression of reactionary forces, and the subsequent century or more of conscious, deliberate adaptation and planning that will be required to reshape human society as it purges itself of the last 600 years of EuroCentric hegemony and eventually creates the conditions for humanity to process its collective traumas and hopefully come out the other side into a sustainable community that can work together for several thousand years to reintegrate with the ecosystem and once again become healthy participants in the web of life

[-] jtrek@startrek.website 1 points 3 hours ago

American conservatives are Liberals.

This is one of those things that's technically correct but in colloquial conversation causes much confusion. No street level republican will cause themselves a liberal. They think liberal means left-wing. Socialist. Communism. Abolition of the old systems and ushering in a new one without states, castes, or private property to stratify people into their different levels. Hierarchy, if you will.

Are there any major players in US politics you would identify as conservative? The democratic party is also primarily concerned with private property and markets, with some lip service paid to civil rights and labor. It's less anti-science and anti-intellectual, at least.

Note how on the one hand you think Conservatism is about protecting the monarchy and on the other hand you think American Republicans are conservatives despite their focus on private property, profits, corporate profits, and tax loopholes for the rich. You can’t hold both of these views if you actually engage with the ideas.

These ideas are not contradictory if you accept my thesis that the underlying concept is the preservation of hierarchy. The details are less important. The idea is that there are some people who are on top, who rule, who have different rules applied to them. A republican senator can take a month of paid sick leave, because he's Important, but a regular laborer cannot do such a thing. Sometimes it's nobility. Sometimes it's just the capitalist ownership class. But there's also the lower levels, that are similar in a way. That's where you get whites dominant over everyone else. Men above women.

I identify as a Communist - I believe in the abolition of private property, in decolonization and anti-imperialism, in active repression of reactionary forces, and the subsequent century or more of conscious, deliberate adaptation and planning that will be required to reshape human society as it purges itself of the last 600 years of EuroCentric hegemony and eventually creates the conditions for humanity to process its collective traumas and hopefully come out the other side into a sustainable community that can work together for several thousand years to reintegrate with the ecosystem and once again become healthy participants in the web of life

So we actually agree on all of that, perhaps barring some minutia and details.

Just read John Locke and Edmund Burke. They’re good starting points.

I'll submit this suggestion to my book club. (No, I'm serious. We just read Zinn's people's history. Don't laugh.)

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

This is one of those things that’s technically correct but in colloquial conversation causes much confusion

No. The confusion is already there. The American population has been thoroughly confused. Using correct terminology is ILLUMINATING, and yes, it illuminates the confusion, and thus presents a chance to end the confusion. The American politicians LOVE the idea of two factions of liberalism controlling the entire discourse because then nothing makes any sense except the minor variations on liberalism that they manage.

They think liberal means left-wing. Socialist. Communism

They don't. They're not idiots. They're playing the population for fools. They know that they're fans of Adam Smith and John Locke, and they know that both of them were Liberal. They hire staffers from Harvard. Most of them are lawyers who studied this stuff. They know what they're doing. They're pandering and confusing. Deliberately. Because it gives them the power to manipulate.

Are there any major players in US politics you would identify as conservative?

Maybe Thiel and Yarvin who might actually think returning to monarchy is a good idea. But no. 99.9% of American Conservatives are Liberals and 99.9% of American Liberals are Liberals. It's a Liberal country founded on Liberal ideals by Liberals. It is the quintessential Liberal experiment.

The democratic party is also primarily concerned with private property and markets, with some lip service paid to civil rights and labor.

Correct. Because they're Liberals.

These ideas are not contradictory if you accept my thesis that the underlying concept is the preservation of hierarchy.

Which no one who studies the field accepts.

The idea is that there are some people who are on top, who rule, who have different rules applied to them

That's identical in Liberalism. Note how the Liberal founders of the USA, steeped in Liberal thought, made sure that the Senate was a body to protect landlord (or as James Madison put it, the opulent minority), how they made sure that slaves were private property and that slave OWNERS got more votes than merely people rich people who didn't own slaves, how women did not get to vote, how the states selected their senators and not the people, how they created an electoral college, how they made sure that polities were large enough to require large amounts of money and freedom to get elected into office. Liberalism was ALWAYS about protections for the rich and not for the poor. Always.

A republican senator can take a month of paid sick leave, because he’s Important, but a regular laborer cannot do such a thing. Sometimes it’s nobility. Sometimes it’s just the capitalist ownership class. But there’s also the lower levels, that are similar in a way. That’s where you get whites dominant over everyone else. Men above women.

Note. That's Liberalism, my friend. Racism gets codified around the time maritime mercantilism is getting incubated. By the time Liberalism becomes a philosophy, it's fully invested in racial hierarchy. When the Liberal revolution happens in the US, the founding medical universities were all pumping out race "science" to justify slavery. That's ALL Liberalism. Kings didn't make people racist. Merchants did, because they needed to prove to courts of law that throwing slaves overboard wasn't murder, it was property destruction and thus covered under insurance claims. Because that's how Liberalism works.

White supremacy is not a Conservative concept. Patriarchy is not a Conservative concept. Were there Liberals who wanted to abolish these things? Yes. Is it because they were Liberals? No.

The confusion comes from the propaganda of Liberalism as a defender of "universal rights", when what it really did was invent the concept of abstract "rights" as way of fighting the "injustices" of monarchy, when those injustices were specifically "I can't buy land because I'm not nobility". The only reason they were expanded to include things peasants cared about was to get the peasant to fight on the side of Liberals. But the Liberal philosophy drove the absolute height of chattel slavery in the West, complete with it's utter brutality and it's Christian nationalist mythos.

I’ll submit this suggestion to my book club. (No, I’m serious. We just read Zinn’s people’s history. Don’t laugh.)

Zinn is great, but it should absolutely make everyone pause and go "wait a minute, we don't actually know what we're talking about" and then reading Locke and Burke become salient. And then when you read them, I swear you'll see things in Locke that you'll realize are totally batshit, like the idea that if a virgin forest is inhabited by indigenous humans who forage for food, they don't own it, but if I personally chop down a tree, sell it for money, then hire 2 people to chop down more trees, sell them, and then pay an army to chop down all the trees, now I and I alone own all of that land and it's within my right to kill anyone who would trespass that land AND ALSO the purpose of government is to provide a police force that will kill people for me because I couldn't POSSIBLY ever personally defend all of the land that I would be able to own....

And then you'll read Burke and realize, holy shit these Conservatives literally had a social welfare perspective that the nobility was required to provide for the common people, and then you'll really understand the People's History because after nearly every Liberal revolution in Europe there was like a full century of just fucking economic devastation where the merchants took all of the wealth and the laborers lived like cockroaches (and died like cockroaches) and the Liberals were like "work harder, and smarter, and maybe you'll earn a life one day" and that shit went on for so long it literally created Marxism and the Liberals were suddenly fighting against organized labor and they saw the revolution in Russia and were like "holy shit we're gonna die" so they reinvented social welfare to protect themselves.

I know it's confusing to Americans. But that confusion is not my fault, and we have to work through the confusion for people to finally understand what the fuck has been happening all these years. It's two factions of Liberalism, primarily separated by the particular psycho-social profiles they resonate with the most, and they collaborate to maintain the Liberal power structure against liberatory movements that would unseat them from power.

[-] jtrek@startrek.website 2 points 37 minutes ago

Would this entire conversation (and I appreciate you taking the time without being too prickly) gone a clearer route if my initial post had been something like "The dominant political ideology of the US, which I want to call conservatism because that's what the US republican party calls it, but is arguably liberalism (and not the propagandized "freedom and prosperity for all" version), is built upon hierarchy. The capitalist class lives by a different set of rules, and sometimes bestow a lesser form of that to others- eg: white supremacy, patriarchy. People are not equal, in this view."

Or maybe it would have slammed into this:

These ideas are not contradictory if you accept my thesis that the underlying concept is the preservation of hierarchy.

Which no one who studies the field accepts.

Well I guess I'll have to go get my PhD then! Heh.

But, to review, what I was responding to was this

People in power (and unfortunately most people not in power also) think that there is a “fair” order to things. Those deserving will be successful, and the undeserving will not (and should not and must not) get anything.

And I think that idea of a "fair" order, with some on top, some under them, and a lot on the bottom is endemic in... what I would have called conservative thought but after all this I guess I'd now call liberal. Or maybe "right wing" is a parent category?

They think liberal means left-wing. Socialist. Communism

They don’t. They’re not idiots. They’re playing the population for fools. They know that they’re fans of Adam Smith and John Locke, and they know that both of them were Liberal. They hire staffers from Harvard. Most of them are lawyers who studied this stuff. They know what they’re doing. They’re pandering and confusing. Deliberately. Because it gives them the power to manipulate.

Point of order. The "they" in my sentence was referring to what I called street level republicans. Guys with maga hats who don't read non-fiction and certainly don't know who John Locke was. Not the people running the show. The capitalist class and high ranking officials may be more in line with your description there.

The only reason they were expanded to include things peasants cared about was to get the peasant to fight on the side of Liberals

A recurring theme highlighted in people's history.

I swear you’ll see things in Locke that you’ll realize are totally batshit, like the idea that if a virgin forest is inhabited by indigenous humans who forage for food, they don’t own it, but if I personally chop down a tree, sell it for money, then hire 2 people to chop down more trees, sell them, and then pay an army to chop down all the trees, now I and I alone own all of that land and it’s within my right to kill anyone who would trespass that land AND ALSO the purpose of government is to provide a police force that will kill people for me because I couldn’t POSSIBLY ever personally defend all of the land that I would be able to own…

Yes, that does sound batshit.

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 minutes ago

The dominant political ideology of the US ~~, which I want to call conservatism because that’s what the US republican party calls it, but is arguably liberalism (and not the propagandized “freedom and prosperity for all” version),~~ is built upon hierarchy. The capitalist class lives by a different set of rules, and sometimes bestow a lesser form of that to others- eg: white supremacy, patriarchy. People are not equal, in this view.

If you had led with this, without naming it, and without assigning it to a party, this would be completely accurate. I get prickly when people use these words to make it seem like the Democrats are an alternative to this ideology, because they are not. They are a faction within the same ideology.

Well I guess I’ll have to go get my PhD then! Heh.

I know it feels like that, but it's not so bad as that. I don't have my PhD in this stuff, and there's plenty more for me to learn, but I did spend most of my undergrad majoring in philosophy so I have a little bit more of a leg up than people on this sort of reading than some others do. But it's relatively accessible, and there are plenty of websites that help to explain a lot of this in easy to consume terms. Hell, an a.i. chatbot today will give you a decent primer if you just ask "is American conservativism actually a form of philosophical Liberalism? How did that happen?".

And I think that idea of a “fair” order, with some on top, some under them, and a lot on the bottom is endemic in… what I would have called conservative thought but after all this I guess I’d now call liberal. Or maybe “right wing” is a parent category?

Yeah, it's tough. I think what you're pointing at is something I don't think I've ever seen a useful word for. It could be "elitist". Liberalism and Conservatism are both "elitist" ideologies, they just differ on the details of the elite. Using "right wing" and "left wing" gets all sorts of muddled, because during the period of Liberal revolution, Liberals were Left Wing and Monarchists were Right Wing. But now there are very few Monarchists and it's not much of a real position in most places in the world, though it does exist in some places. Without Communists are now Left Wing and Liberals are now Right Wing. In those places with all three, one might assume we could say Liberals are "centrists" but the reality is that they will always side with Monarchists against Communists because Communism is ideologically anti-elite (even if people want to argue that in practice an elite does emerge).

In short, adding in "wings" can be more confusing in some contexts. But also there's no real language for lumping the commonality between Liberalism and Conservatism in the way that you and I both see exists.

The “they” in my sentence was referring to what I called street level republicans

Oh gotcha. Yeah. Must people who don't dig deep and learn about this stuff are thoroughly immersed in deliberately confusing propaganda and mostly align with symbols as they are used within their insulated social networks. This is true regardless of affiliation.

Yes, that [Lockean Private Property] does sound batshit.

Yeah, private property is a sacred cow and the primary lever for red scare propaganda ("they'll take your toothbrush!") but when you really analyze it it's just the ability for a single human being to deprive all other living 8B people today, and all of their descendants, for ALL TIME from ever using a particular piece of the earth purely on the basis that I "applied labor to make the land 'productive'", but also I didn't need to do the labor myself I could have paid someone to do it, or I could have bought slaves and made them do it, and that grants me inalienable rights to deprive all of humanity present and future from the fruits of the earth? Any contemporary human given an honest reading of Locke would be absolutely revolted by it, but, of course, it sounded fucking great to people like Thomas Jefferson who just wanted to breed slaves and sell them to farmers so they could grow cotton and tobacco on land that they stole from the natives they massacred.

Sorry.

I just don't want the people who are resisting to resist "conservatives" exclusively. It's not enough. It's a Punch and Judy show. It's Good Cop/Bad Cop. If we only get angry and resist conservatives, we're inevitably going to get led about by the nose from the "liberals" who promise they'll make it all better, when fundamentally they're goal is to direct and diffuse our anger so we don't destroy their genocidal gravy train.

this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2026
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