Everything about someone is determined, at it's core, by something outside their control. Whether that's their genes, their upbringing, or where they were born.

So really whether someone can be fundamentally bad would depend on what the definition is. I would say there are bad people but it's not their fault.

[–] Axisential 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I have two kids who are so different in temperament that's it's just not funny. Considering they are only separated by 2 years, one has to assume their upbringings were pretty similar, so that leaves genetics as the primary driver. If you take this to its logical extreme, you would have to find people whose genetic combination is such that no amount of nurture and 'good' upbringing could ever compensate.

So yes, I believe there are some people out there who are just fundamentally at odds with what society would define as a 'good person', from the outset. Horrible thought (Divergent, anyone?!) but they're sort of buggered from the start aren't they...

[–] absGeekNZ 2 points 1 year ago

I have 3 boys, they are all very different; the oldest is very academic, but he has issues relating to people; the middle one is kind and thoughtful, very imaginative and funny; the youngest is very physical, loves to play and push and just be active.

All of them are similar is a bunch of ways; but there are differences and I have to assume there is a genetic component.

[–] Dave 2 points 1 year ago

I feel like I've read a book that talked about reasons humans seem to have more diverse personalities amongst a sibling group compared to most animals. I'm afraid I can't remember what the book was or what it's conclusions were, though 🙁

I'm pretty sure there are studies that look at this though, in particular with twins, especially identical twins, as part of that old nature vs nurture debate.

[–] absGeekNZ 2 points 1 year ago

It does get back to the free will discussion. As someone who falls firmly on the freewill does exist, line of reasoning.

I think what upbringing does is restrict the types of choices that you can make. The "worse" your upbringing; the fewer choices that occur to you.

[–] deadbeef79000 2 points 1 year ago

99.9% product of environment: including upbringing, education, support, etc.

That last 0.1% is your genetic inheritance: taller people make better basketball players.

[–] Ilovethebomb 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are psychopaths and sociopaths, who are just fundamentally broken and aren't really safe to allow into society.

Most people are a product of their environment, but there's a few who are just broken.

[–] absGeekNZ 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

According to this the instance of psychopathy in the general population is really high at 1.2%.

And according to this Sociopathy or Antisocial Personality Disorder is between 1-4%.

Now I'm not sure if you are saying that all people who have ASPD or are psychopathic should not be allowed into society or not. But the proportion of people with these conditions is quite significant.

[–] Ilovethebomb 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is there a sliding scale for this stuff? That's a lot more than I thought.

[–] absGeekNZ 2 points 1 year ago

I'm pretty sure, like anything in psychology and in mental health; the scales are variable and there is nothing even close to black and white.

[–] liv 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah I think they might exist. Personality and environment are important but I think to some extent we choose to feed some traits in ourselves more than others.

I once had a disturbing conversation with a colleague in which he seriously asserted that doing evil was more interesting and rewarding than doing good. A few months later he turned out to be a manipulative serial sexual harasser who was threatening to ruin young women's careers.

To me, that's an example of a genuinely bad person. I mean he pretty obviously had APD but he was also actively and consciously choosing to lean into it.

[–] absGeekNZ 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You have to wonder what motivates those people.

[–] liv 2 points 1 year ago

Idk on one hand I can't understand it at all but on the other hand from my reading around the subject since then, I think what motivates them are some of the motivations we might have too, like a desire to feel special, a desire to experience a thrill, a desire to have power and agency in our lives.

Only with them the channels they choose to achieve it are different and their lack of empathy puts a lot of options on the table for them that are just unthinkable to us.

After my run in with that guy I read up on APD and con artists so I would be able to spot it sooner in future. There are plenty of people with APD who don't choose to nurture that side of themselves.