this post was submitted on 15 Feb 2024
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I just cannot bring myself to trust my life to a Chinese car.
I have done business there. I know what it's like. It does not fill me with confidence.
Also it's one thing to be spied on by ad companies (which is bad enough) but quite another to be spied on by an adversarial dictatorship.
Exactly. Same reason I won't use Chinese brand phones.
That seems like a silly worry to me. I would be more concerned about what my own country or a corporation or the USA could do to me than China. Think about it. The USA could charge me with something like copyright violation and boom I get arrested just like that. China accuses me of a crime and the government won't do shit.
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea. You should absolutely be vigilant against your own government as well. But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That's not a silly worry, it's a daily occurrence.
Did you mean say "foreign entity" or "China". Because we already give that information to a foreign entity, multiple foreign agencies in fact.
It's a silly worry for me because I am not a chinese dissident living abroad.
Well that's up to you. I'm no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you'll understand if I take it more personally. China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don't think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
I haven't heard of people being abducted from Taiwan, but friends were detained while transferring flights in Hong Kong over some China-critical social media posts.
Fair but while America is far from squeaky clean, I've never avoided traveling via one of their airports for fear of something I said about their president on social media. And if they did I wouldn't, except in extreme cases, disappear from the face of the earth with my family having no idea what happened to me. China does these things routinely. Even to very prominent members of their own society.
Look if you say "I'm not involved, it's not my problem" that's fair enough. But to say there's no difference between the US (which I fully acknowledge does lots of bad things) and China is missing the plot a bit.
This is exactly the point. Both are bad, but one plays by no rules whatsoever, while the other at least pays lip service to them.
In Taiwan itself? No. When they transit through China, or friendly countries? Yes, emphatically.
You would be wrong about most of this. The Chinese government has one of the most sophisticated spying networks in the world. Remember this: all large Chinese companies have CCP officers with complete access to all information.
I feel like you haven't been to the US. Companies collect personal info, yes, but the US government isn't out there wiretapping the entire world. Real life isn't like the CIA movies, mate.
Well I am neither Taiwanese nor am I traveling through China so....
I don't think so. The exploits of the NSA have been widely reported. Nowhere close to the USA or even Israel.
All US companies are subject to US laws which allow for full and free access to all information from those companies. Aside from that the NSA has code in all the routers, all the sim cards, all the hard drive firmware etc. Again all this has been widely published.
I have actually but I don't see why that's relevant. You really think people gain knowledge once they step off the airplane into the USA?
It sounds like you are not very aware of what's been happening.
So you only care about yourself?
Yes, you are. Both of those countries have large intelligence programs, yes. So does the CCP. And, as I mentioned elsewhere, they don't have to even pretend to follow the law. China is a massive surveillance state.
But sure mate, China fine, US big bad scary. Got it.
The CCP has no laws it needs to follow. The US government does. It needs reasons to get information on you, and the information it can get is limited. And no, the NSA, doesn't. Some systems allows access, but not "all routers etc". That's conspiracy theory territory I'm afraid.
I am, I'm just not a paranoid conspiracy nut.
I care mostly about myself. Just like you care mostly about yourself. You certainly don't use the same criteria against any other country.
USA is much worse, much more pervasive, much more massive.
China bad, USA is worse.
Same goes for the USA.
Nope. It gathers mass information all the time. This conversation is being recorded by the USA because all traffic on the internet is being recorded by them. They didn't need to ask anybody.
You are more paranoid than me but also racist from the looks of it.
I have empathy for many people. I care about all lives. I never once said I hold this view exclusively about China. We were talking about Chinese cars, so I said I don't trust them.
Disagree. You should spend time in Asia and talk to the people there, follow the news, etc. You might learn something.
Ok, so how does that invalidate me not wanting a Chinese car or a Chinese cellphone exactly? Since that's how this started...
No, this is wrong. The government can do a lot, yes, but it is not a dictatorship.
It really isn't, but whatever.
How, exactly, am I racist?
Do you? Even about Palestinians and Yemeni and Saudi Arabians?
Disagree all you want. The fact that NSA has software in all routers and hard drive firmware and sim cards has been widely reported.
Yes, of course. Why do you keep bringing them up? What do they have to do with Chinese cars? I genuinely don't understand why you are on about this.
No, it is reported they put backdoors in US-made routers. Your claims of "all" are nonsense.
But even if we agree on this fact, I am less concerned about it. Why? Because I can badmouth the US government and have no fear of being detained if I travel there. The same cannot be said about China, as another poster has already pointed out.
I'm sure they won't do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don't have to?
Corporations spy on us too, and this is motivated by profit. The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
You are doing that now though.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
Why? Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP? If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
Depends on the topic. I trust NZ government more than the CCP in most things but I fear the NZ government more than I fear the CCP because the NZ government exercises more power over me than the CCP does.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
Because I don't want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
Yes.
As bad as they are they can not exert any power over me. OTOH both the NZ government and the US government can exert tremendous amount of power over me.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
Now I know you don't fully grasp how bad the CCP is.
The US government is pretty corrupt. But it is absolutely nothing like the CCP. Does the US government disappear political opponents? Does it require all companies over a certain size to have official party officers on staff, to ensure they are 'paying their dues' and not becoming too powerful. Does it fund infrastructure projects to debt riddled countries so that they have no choice but to sell them all their mineral wealth? Does the US government actively genocide ethnic minorities? Seriously, they are both bad, but the CCP is much worse.
What?
🙄
The US has no control over you, unless you are a citizen there. What are you afraid of?
You keep moving the goalpost. CCP is bad, not as bad as the USA, not as bad Saudi Arabia, not as bad as South Korea, not as bad as Israel.
LOL. "pretty corrupt".
It kills them with drone strikes. Also tortures them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man
Yes, by helping Israel and Saudi Arabia and Yemen do it.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dotcom-wins-settlement-from-police-over-the-2012-dawn-raid-which-saw-him-arrested/2EGYXEM64SKGMYHJPZ23QNIRO4/
I'm not moving anything. You started using whataboutism to compare China to the US. "The US is worse" and all that. While I disagree with you about this, it doesn't matter. Multiple things can be true at once. China is bad. The US is bad. Israel is bad. These are all, simultaneously, true.
Yes, pretty corrupt. They are still a government that follows laws. This is why Trump is currently facing legal problems instead of successfully overthrowing Biden in a coup. Currently, Biden cannot pass certain laws because it still requires both the Senate and the House to pass a new law.
You understand that the CCP is a dictatorship right? Single party with absolute control? These things are not the same.
Terrorists and enemy combatants, yes. Not political opponents though. Is Biden ordering his political opponents locked up and tortured? No? These things are not the same.
From your link: "By law, NSLs can request only non-content information, for example, transactional records and phone numbers dialed, but never the content of telephone calls or e-mails."
I am not arguing that the US does not do bad things, but that it is not comparable to the CCP. The US still generally tries to follow its own laws. The CCP can and does do whatever it wants.
Lol, this is a book which is widely discredited. The author is a conspiracy theorist, and little if anything of his claims have been verified. I would not use that book as your source of information.
If you do not see how these are not the same thing then we may as well move on.
So a very high profile person who flagrantly broke the law in multiple jurisdictions has led to the US asking for extradition, which is a thing many countries will do, and is still here. This is your example? Are you a high profile owner of a massive piracy platform? No?
No actual US citizens and their children. BTW all it takes for them to call somebody a terrorist is to call them a terrorist.
Apparently you haven't been keeping up with the news
That's because they already have access to the content from the NSA.
LOL it hasn't.
If you don't see how it's the same thing thing we might as well move on. There are actual genocides happening in Gaza and Yemen but hey since the US is helping with those that's OK I guess.
He only broke US laws and his house was raided.
Again though you seem to think this is perfectly fine so there is no need to go on.
I have.
They don't, at least not how you are suggesting they do.
It has.
When did I say they were ok?
Copywrite infringement is illegal in most countries, including here.
When did I say it was? I don't think he should be extradited, but I'm not worried about the Big Bad US Government coming after me.
He wasn't charged with copyright infringement.
But you are worried about the big bad Chinese government coming after you.
No, you're right, he is charged with criminal copyright infringement, money laundering, racketeering and wire fraud.
More than the US, yes. Why? Because of the reasons I've outline elsewhere: the US, as bad as it is, still has some laws and balances it must navigate. The Chinese government has none, and has actively shown to track and detain both citizens and foreigners.
I have lived and worked in China, so I am absolutely certain there is a file on me somewhere (I had a nice chat with a "totallynota" member of the CCP at my a company over drinks one night when he offered that they keep an eye on every foreigner in the country.
I also refuse to support such a regime.
He wasn't charged with anything in NZ.
Do you think if China accused you of copyright infringement NZ police would raid your house?
And you are convinced the NZ government would do the bidding of the Chinese if the Chinese government decided to come after you right?
You probably trust your life to chinese made parts in your current car.
Absolutely, but those are parts which are subject to overseas QA, standards and testing. For example, I have a Toyota. Chinese made parts must meet their strict quality control, must adhere to safety standards, etc.
I know first hand that, in China, regulations and standards can be bypassed with the correct payments. I do not trust that they have not done so, especially when there are other, better, choices.
We are talking about a country that has things like Melamine laced baby formula quite frequently. How did these things pass regulators and testing? Bribary.
The cars that are exported here must meet our standards.
That's fine if you're happy to drive one, I don't really care. Personally I won't.
They can say they meet regulations all they won't, but the number of times corners are cut in China to make a few extra bucks makes me look elsewhere.
This is all not to mention not wanting to support the CCP in any way, and the CCP has fingers in all the large companies in China.
You do you boo. It seems like the rest of the country doesn't agree with you too much.
But hey you hate China and I guess that's one badge you can wear with honor.
I never said anyone else had to listen to me. I said, originally, that I wouldn't drive a Chinese company.
And I want to be very clear here. I don't hate China. I greatly distrust the Chinese government, and the culture of bribary, lying, cheating and scamming that has gone along with it. I also do not hate it because it's popular to do so online. I have this view because of direct, personal, experience with Chinese companies and the government there.
Simply put, Chinese companies have and will make important stuff out of sub-par materials to make a buck, and lie, cheat and bribe their way to market. And then people die. This is not paranoia, this is something that happens all the time there.
So you don't hate china but you hate the chinese government and everybody in china who works for any company that makes any product.
That's not at all what I said.
It's exactly what you said. Who do you think is making sure the chinese cars are going to kill you when you get in them if not the workers?
Sigh.
Companies in China regularly cut corners. I don't think they are actively trying to kill me, I never said that. I said I don't trust that they are made as they say they are. I don't trust that the vehicle I buy is the same as the one that was tested by encap, or was sent to the regulators to ensure it complied.
This is not because I'm racist, or hate Chinese people, or anything. This is from experience, but personal and historical, about the culture of corner cutting, cheating, lying and bribery, that is normalized in China.
To be very clear, I have lived and worked in China. I am not just talking out of my ass.
You mean the people who work in those companies right?
But if they are cutting corners they are actively trying to kill you.
So what you are saying is that they people who built this car were actively trying to kill anybody who drove the car.
Well yes, I suppose it is the workers and management who are cutting corners. What's your point?
No, they are trying to save a buck. They might not care about the consequences, or they might think it will all be fine, or something else. They aren't sitting around, rubbing their hands with glee and laughing about how many kiwis they will kill.
Again, no.
Let me give you an example. There was a scandal in 2008 where a company manufacturing baby formula was adding chemicals so that lab tests would show it had higher protein count. The chemical led to kidney damage in infants, with over 50,000 being hospitalized.
Do I think that company was trying to kill kids? No. They were trying to make more money, damn the consequences.
So you hate all the people who work in all the companies in China.
No they are trying to kill you. They know they are going to kill every person who buys a chinese car. You said it yourself. Chinese cars are not safe because people who work in Chinese companies are building cars that will kill the people who buy them.
Of course not. They sell cars all over the world and are going to kill every person who buys a chinese car anywhere in the world.
So yes then. The people who work in all chinese companies are just like these people and all products made in china are just like this baby formula. All chinese products will kill or make people sick because chinese people who work in those companies want to kill the people who buy those products right?
I never said that, what the fuck are you on about?
Now you are being an idiot.
You continue being an idiot.
What the fuck are you on about mate.