Kia ora and welcome to the NZ Politics community!
This is a place for respectful discussions about everything that's political and kiwi
This is an inclusive space where diverse opinions are valued, but please don't be a dick
Banner image by Tom Ackroyd, CC-BY-SA
I predict a big increase in the number of electric and hybrid cars sold in the next few months...
I like the discount, I think we need to encourage vehicles with lower emissions and NZ is a great place to do so since we have 80%+ of power from renewable sources (and if you charge overnight it's higher).
I don't mind other approaches. But so far National's policies don't really add up. Ok, remove this incentive, but how will you meet the targets?
I don't think they have any intention to meet targets.
Hmm, yeah makes you start thinking. We've been thinking that our next cat will be an electric car - but we've put it off for now as we don't really drive a lot at the moment, and we've had a lot of expenses recently with a house and all that.
Maybe we should bring it forward...maybe.
Probably need to understand the policy a bit better. If you get in line for a car but there's a waiting list from the sudden demand, if you don't get it until after they remove the policy do you end up missing out? It's a bit of a gamble.
We have a leaf, I've been hoping to get an electric long-distance car as well but was hoping to wait a year or two until ranges get better.
My other question is: are they going to extend the RUC exemption for EVs? Because if they don't, that will make electric cars much less attractive from a financial angle.Currently the RUC exemption is only until March next year, but it gets extended basically every year for another year. National might not, though.
We just got our Leaf this week, now just waiting on the rebate to be processed. The plan is to replace our older hybrid with a longer range EV in the next five years, once more of them show up second hand.
You're right about the uncertainty, I wouldn't be putting my name down on a waitlisted EV right now if my purchase was depending on receiving the rebate. I do think some form of RUC is fair for EVs, but yeah making it less attractive to own a low emission vehicle combined with removing the rebate at the same time seems short sighted.
For us (and possibly many others), our decision at this point in time probably hinges a lot on the Rebate. Neither of us have bought a new car before, so it feels like quite an investment to make that (along with a few other factors) we could only really justify with the lower price.
Also, how are you liking your new Leaf? I did do a bit of looking into it recently as a potential option.
If you don't mind me asking, did you go for the Long Range package?, and why or why not?
Oops I wasn't too clear, but we got an imported second hand 2018 40kwh Leaf. We were tossing up between going for a new car (MG4) and going second hand. Decided it wasn't worth it even with full rebate right now for something we were planning to use just around town and for my partner to go to work. Our actual plan was to go second hand and get solar installed, which would have cost less than the new car. The roof maintenance issues threw a spanner into the works so we're not doing solar for now.
I've never bought a new car either and this is actually the most expensive car I've ever bought. Accounting for the rebate and selling the old ICE car, the Leaf cost us around $18.5k. When there are a more extended range second hand EV's for sale will be when we trade up the old hybrid.
We like the car a lot, but I will say if we only had one car the Leaf wouldn't be my first choice due to the lack of active battery cooling and battery degradation. As it stands the range on it for around town use will last us a long time even with degradation. It was advertised as 89% SOH and it still shows the full 12 bars. I'm just waiting on my ODBII dongle to arrive so I can check and monitor battery health.
Hmm, I think I might be in a similar spot to you. We don't really drive a ton, which makes me think again about a full EV. Met up with a few mates over the weekend who drive Toyota Hybrids, and made me think again. But then I hear about the horrible wait times for new cars, and how that's causing the 2nd hand market for some of these cars to skyrocket, it doesn't seem too bright out there...
Would also like to get Solar Panels, but if I do get them, I really like the idea of getting batteries as well, which obviously makes it soo much more expensive.
Do you guys have a second car or this would be your only one? I would probably go hybrid if it was my only one, unless you’re going for a brand new EV. It’s nice the fact you don’t have to rely on gas prices or go anywhere to “fill up” if you can charge at home.
Solar battery will be great if you can afford the upfront cost. I think initially we won’t be but will make sure the install is expandable later on
We currently have two cars, so it would be replacing one of them. Honestly with how little we drive, buying a decent second hand hybrid might be the best (most cost effective) way forward.
Yeah, exactly what we were thinking for solar as well. Make sure that everything is compatible with batteries if we wish to do so in the future.
If you plan on using it for long trips I would say so. Only downside in my view is that hybrids still have all the same basic service costs as a normal car. Still needs oil and filter, spark plugs etc. if you can do basic servicing yourself you can save even more. I do all of ours for our hybrid.
Hmm good point re/ servicing. With your Leaf, whats the servicing look like? There must be some unique stuff that needs to be done for EV's?
Well we've only just got it, but from my understanding it's just brakes, brake fluids, tyres, maybe cabin air filter? I guess you could count wipers and wiper fluid? There is no combustion engine, fuel system or transmission. General things like checking over suspension, wheel alignment, CV boots etc. But this is the same as any normal car.
Brake pads wear slower on hybrids and EV's due to using regen braking (if you don't have a lead foot). Only reason I've replaced the pads and rotors on our hybrid was the dealer stuck real cheap ones on that cracked and were noisy. There was still a ton of pad life left. Was also a learning experience for me to do it myself. You can buy cheaper, but quality parts from places like RockAuto too.
I think it boils down to EV = less interacting components, less servicing requirements, Hybrid = same as a petrol car.
For sure EVs should (longer term) have to pay RUC, since they aren't paying for roads through petrol tax.
But it's another way we can make low emissions vehicles more attractive, and if we are gonna hit our emissions targets we are going to need to do that.
Nats seem fairly committed to ending the RUC exemption as well.
I think given the popularity of PHEVs, they really need to reconsider the whole scheme, but I also doubt that much thought will be put into it
Ah that's a double blow for carbon emissions, two reasons EVs are less attractive.
PHEVs are an interesting case. I'm not sure what a fair system looks like for them, since different use cases will use larger or smaller shares of petrol/electricity.
Non-plugin hybrid are also interesting. If the intention of petrol tax is road maintenance, how come a hybrid gets to only pay half as much because it's using half as much fuel? Plus, hybrids are the heaviest. Leafs and Model 3s aren't that much heavier than other cars of a similar size, but hybrids are heavier than petrol or electric cars.
Are we looking at a future where all vehicles need to pay road user charges?
It's certainly a complex future I fear. We have a PHEV which I look at positively from an overall km/L basis - but because we live 20mins or so 'from town' we don't do a lot of electric-only running. It would seem we may be penalised for that in the future - hit with both the petrol taxes and the electric RUCs.
Interestingly, having just come back from Auckland, I was astounded at the number of Tesla's on the road - given their price point, it would seem that the EV rebate is going to people who arguably don't need it
Tesla’s on the road - given their price point, it would seem that the EV rebate is going to people who arguably don’t need it
Can you explain what you mean by this? There are a lot of used and imported Tesla's being sold now. There are 105 used Tesla's showing on Trademe right now and most won't get the rebate. A freshly imported second hand Tesla that hasn't been registered here yet will get the same $3450 rebate as a $15k freshly imported Leaf. Tesla's styling hasn't been changed at all for some time, so unless you know what you're looking for it's difficult to tell if the Tesla you saw is a 6-7 year old model or a brand new one.
I thought the goal of the rebate is to drive low emission vehicle adoption, with EV's being the newest technology the higher end of the market is where it would be happening first. You can still get partial rebates on imported used Hybrids and EV's depending on that model's emissions.
My point is that Tesla falls firmly into luxury car price range - so rather than incentivising 'average' people to choose an EV equivalent of say a Toyota Corolla, which will then trickle down as it's sold and resold, we're getting an overrepresentation of Merc and BMW buyers choosing Tesla. Perhaps that's to help do their part to reduce emissions, perhaps as a status symbol - it arguably doesn't matter. What does matter is that it appears we're seeing more of the luxury EVs than 'affordable' EVs - and that's going to matter deeply when it comes to adopttion by the masses.
I think the issue then is in terms of pure zero emission vehicles in the last few years Tesla’s have had the most value in terms of technology, range, battery longevity. This is slowly changing. Even now you can get a new MG4 at $40k after rebate which is firmly in the same price range of a new Corolla. We’re starting to see more and more lower priced EV’s coming out from the likes of BYD, Opel, GWM. The real problem is that we’re waiting for the other manufacturers to start releasing EV’s to market.
Have a look on evdb.nz and you can see that there are quite a few models now that are in the 40k range after rebate which is within a new Corolla pricing. More affordable new EV’s are coming, it’s just that the major manufacturers are playing catch up, while Tesla has been doing it from the start, which is why you’re seeing more of them.
Interestingly, having just come back from Auckland, I was astounded at the number of Tesla’s on the road - given their price point, it would seem that the EV rebate is going to people who arguably don’t need it
I'm less surprised. Down around Wellington, there are Teslas everywhere. But also, there are shiny clean $80,000 utes everywhere too.
I think it's important to understand that the point of the rebate is not to subsidise the less fortunate to buy new cars. The point is that when someone who was already going to buy a new car looks at the options, they find EVs to be at a comparable price point to the petrol equivalent. It's to incentivise new cars to be electric, because new cars become the second hand cars of tomorrow. No one buying a new car needs a subsidy, but if it's not there then people are more likely to choose petrol options.
There was another scheme planned aimed at making EV use affordable for low income drivers (social leasing scheme), but this was canned at the time Jacinda stepped down and the govt did a reset of projects.
Hmm those are some great points. I really didn't factor in the whole RUC part of it. Hmmm... makes you think a bit. I recently saw the new Prius online and was wondering what they would cost in NZ because they look pretty good - unfortunately they're not bringing them here :(
I think RUCs should be levied on all cars based on weight and mileage traveled. You can lower gasoline taxes to make it revenue neutral if you want.
This will mean higher RUCs for electrics but that's only fair as they chew up the roads more.
I agree, they want to remove a lot of things but can be very vague on how they're going to improve on them.
I think the focus on cars is a bigger problem than what energy source they use. EVs are taking over anyway, there is no standing in the way of that.
If we want to reduce emissions (pollution isn't much of a problem in windswept NZ) then we need to focus on more efficient modes of transport and lifestyles. Not more cars.
We will still be able to import used EVs from Japan, if converting our domestic fleet is a goal.
I think the focus on cars is a bigger problem than what energy source they use. EVs are taking over anyway, there is no standing in the way of that.
If there was an alternative that isn't likely to take multiple generations to implement, I would agree, but that is not the case?
If we want to reduce emissions (pollution isn’t much of a problem in windswept NZ) then we need to focus on more efficient modes of transport and lifestyles. Not more cars.
I suspect your definition of pollution doesn't match what most consider it to be. NZ is a terrible polluter of the environment, which includes green house gases (transport and agriculture) and the effects that has on climate change? I don't think the idea is to have more cars, but to replace existing polluting cars with more environmentally friendly EV's?
Sure, pollution in that narrow sense is about direct health effects, and is kind of a side issue. What I've noticed is that some critics of this move to EVs see things in a different light. Take car designers Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey, both scathing about the way this is playing out. What we are getting to replace our ICE vehicles is not a new wave of efficient EVs. Everyone is gravitating to SUV EVs which are hideoisly inefficient. It's like the McMansion-isation of personal transport.
IF the goal is to reduce total emissions we are going about it the wrong way. We should be tax-encouraging K-cars (EV) and other micro-transport options. Instead it has turned into another consumerism feeding frenzy. We are ending up with more, not less.
Everyone is gravitating to SUV EVs which are hideoisly inefficient. It’s like the McMansion-isation of personal transport.
I've heard this more than once recently - what a lot of rot. A medium size electric SUV is no more inefficient than a medium size electric car. It may carry a little more weight around and have a little more wind resistance, so may require/use a little more stored electricity, but not much. If the owner actually needs the extra space or clearance of an SUV (I do, but diesel at the moment not yet electric, mostly due to range issues), then I don't see anything wrong with that.
However, I do agree when it comes to those who buy and drive SUV/Utes etc., just for the Wank factor - I always suspect it is something to do with small penis syndrome ;)
Yean but I'm not comparing it to some other existing vehicle. We apparently want to get our emissions down? Smaller vehicles. Less road miles. The current pattern of switching to EVs does something. It also continues existing behaviour. I think it is an attractive option for many people. "Buy a new car and get to feel good on multiple fronts". In terms of addressing the root of our problems it does very little.
I think I get where you are coming from, but what are the alternatives? Most alternatives like electric public transport that allows commuters to travel into cities to work requires that intergenerational investment that, in NZ, just doesn't seem to happen. Or are you suggesting working from home (which some jobs can't do), or just a much simpler life in general (I'm pretty much there now). Or perhaps where consumerism ends, international trade ends, international travel ends etc., tourists disappear etc. I'm all in, but it simply is not going to happen until the water level rises, the temperature reaches extremes and the effects are actually felt by people first hand. It is the nature of humans, unfortunately?
Alternatives aside for the moment, what we currently have seems to be populist governments dishing out subsidies to private vehicle owners (free roads, free parking, free money for EVs). It seems to work in terms of getting elected. Yet it incentivises people to live far away from their places of interest - work, school, family and friends, and drive everywhere to make up for that.
Maybe a combination of tech will allow us to properly price things like traffic, parking, resource use. Then we may find that suburbia is less sensible economically, or that more living and working is moved out to where people are housed.
Yes, a simpler life in general. Less powerful, more connected.
Looking at what EV's have been popular in China over the last couple of years:
2-3 years ago the most popular EV was the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV:
This year it's the BYD Song Plus:
The Wuling is still in the top five, but so are Tesla. Seems like SUV's are what people want - how could you change peoples minds? Perhaps offer larger rebates on smaller EV's? Or, tax luxury (SUV) EV's? Have to get rid of those oil burners first though!?
You are right, it's what people want.
The way to incentivise smaller vehicles (and less private vehicle travel generally) is through RUC and congestion charges. If we paid for road usage based on weight/footprint the demand for bigger cars wouldn't be so high.
If we had price rationing at peak times (commute, school run etc.) then people would be incentivised to pool, use alternatives, etc.
The emissions from building more roads and parking spaces is non-trivial too.
I get the angle you're coming from, as someone who was bemoaning the lack of availability of small non-SUV EV's in another forum. However when I think about it, it does make sense from the carmakers point of view. The rise in popularity of crossovers and small SUVs didn't start with EVs but was already there from ICE cars. So making EVs to suit the most popular category that they sell is likely a smart move for actually selling EVs.
I guess we could argue about how much responsibility they have for driving that demand or changing the attitudes of their buyers. We'll eventually get there I think, but we can see already it takes a long time to change the general public's perceptions on climate change as it is, let alone getting them to consider smaller vehicles or make lifestyle changes
Wagons are more practical than SUVs, People carriers are more practical than seven seater SUVs.
Everyone is gravitating to SUV EVs which are hideoisly inefficient. It’s like the McMansion-isation of personal transport.
That's because everyone prefers SUVs period. Ask any car dealer how the sedans and the wagons are selling. Hell some manufacturers have even stopped selling them. For example Honda no longer sells Accords in NZ and they don't even make a wagon anymore. Go look at the toyota web site and you'll see no mention of prius.
If there was an alternative that isn't likely to take multiple generations to implement, I would agree, but that is not the case?
This isn't an either or, we're causing a climate emergency that's going to last far longer than multiple generations. We need to be doing everything, as soon as possible.
I agree that our cities and towns are too car centric, it seems very unlikely that we will get sweeping changes to our public transportation or redesigning of cities to be more pedestrian/bike friendly any time soon. The general public seems to be against any large changes to the current way of life and neither major party seems brave enough to do it.
While personal zero emission vehicles contribute a tiny fraction to lowering our emissions, I think incentivizing their uptake is still a good idea. I'm a fan of the Japanese Kaizen concept of incremental continuous improvement that involves everyone. Working on lowering emissions on all fronts is ideal, but as always with politics they can only do so much at a time without upsetting voters.
Tell me you're beholden to big oil without telling me you're beholden to big oil.
Completely nuts to get rid of it! Without incentives like this, most will just continue on as normal, which will result in a very prolonged, if ever, move away from high polluting fossil fuel vehicles.
Some other subjects are simply crazy too.
Yes, agreed. While I hate our car centric society, we need to move to EVs and reduce the age of the fleet, and this discount helps with that.
100%. ICE cars aren’t gonna disappear by magic, and cars in general are here to stay, like them or not. We need to be doing everything we can do remove fossil fuels from our transport infrastructure in general, and this is a great way of doing it.
My question is whether this is a cost effective way of reducing our emissions, especially considering EVs still have an environmental impact in their manufacture.
I'd be happy to see a higher carbon levy on fossil fuels, for example, which would also be an incentive to move towards renewable liquid fuels for applications where electric isn't practical.
Unfortunately that just passes the cost of doing business on to us, the consumers. The oil companies and supply chains still get their lovely profits and shareholder value. It's got to go right back to them, to make the entire fossil fuels ecosystem uneconomical.
