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[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 94 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I do find it interesting how many arguments I'll see online that rely on an idealized version of Christianity to make a point of Christianity, as though Christianity would be pure if people followed the "actual" morals. But like, this is what it is, they're talking about a Christian church in the United States of America and the argument is that if MAGAts followed that Christianity, they'd be following "real" Christianity. Christianity was an engine of colonialism and all of the genocidal violence within it; institutions are what they do, not what they say they want to do.

I think a lot of people don't realize that they're making conservative, revisionist narratives when they want to privilege hypocrisy in their arguments rather than morality.

[-] Triumph@fedia.io 44 points 3 weeks ago

Not to mention that the early Christians were nothing like what came several hundred years later.

[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I mean, sure, but what I'm cautioning against is prescribing any normative definition or configuration of Christianity, as it then implies an idealized version is real, and therefore that the problem is that people aren't following the religion the "right" way, not that there is something systemic that influences how the religion functions in society.

There were baptists in central Europe that allowed women to serve as pastors as early as the early modern period, which is markedly different than what Baptism is like in the US today. During the Second Great Awakening of the early nineteenth century, there were Christian denominations that practiced polyamory and collective property ownership. These were developments that coincided with Christianity as an institution of settler-colonialism and EuroAmerican imperialism, and they were certainly not accepted by larger or more formal denominations at the time; still wouldn't be today. It should also go without saying that they wouldn't reflect the churches in the period you're referring to even if just because they emerged in relation to what came afterward.

It is important to deny ownership of moral values by the institutions that configure and disseminate them for this exact same reason. Even though they serve a purpose within the system they exist in, they meet a need of the people who subscribe to them, and normativity is what stifles their ability to wrestle that utility away from these institutions.

[-] Triumph@fedia.io 11 points 3 weeks ago

Oh sure, I think my point was more that they've cherry-picked what "version" they want to idealize.

[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

Yes, I'm saying "cherry-picking" suggests there are bad and good cherries, when it's just cherries.

[-] Triumph@fedia.io 9 points 3 weeks ago

Well, it's arguable that some of these religious "cherries" are worse than others, but I don't find any of them to be crisp and delicious.

[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yes, exactly, it is arguable, which why I'm saying that you can't say there's actually "good" or "bad" cherries.

Check out "postructuralism" and scholars like Derrida or Foucault. The role that language plays in our constructions and effects on things forces us to interrogate the reality of how we understand this thing to be "good" or "bad," as it is itself subject to the systems of power we are subject to. So, it's very hard not to reproduce the values we're trying to challenge when we don't address how those values are constructed.

Yes, we all know white supremacy is bad, but if it is only bad because it hurts people, then many people think that it only exists at the level of individual actions, like calling someone a slur, and not at a systemic level like how laws and knowledge are oriented around fundamentally devaluing certain groups of people; or why it is those groups of people in the first place besides "hating what's different." White supremacy does hurt people, and that is bad, but our understanding of how it does that changes how we understand what is needed to end it.

[-] Triumph@fedia.io 3 points 3 weeks ago

I think you think that I am failing to think. I also think you are mistaken.

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[-] Serinus@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

So you think you have a better chance of fighting religion as a whole than to get people to follow an idealized version of Christianity, the one that they advertise as when they want to be seen as a force for good.

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[-] terminatortwo@piefed.social 14 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, it’s also not an “airtight” set of beliefs. The bible is a messy collection of books distant from each other in time and goals. You can probably find a passage to justify any point.

Folks looking to use it for their own means are spoiled for choice. Have been for centuries.

[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

But that's also like, the point. The practice of scripture is about having a shared tool to make sense of things as it is the faith that that tool is indeed the right one to do so. Everyone uses it for their own ends.

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[-] boonhet@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago

The livonian crusade brought ~~serfdom~~ god and good morals to my people, I'm sure they were happy!

Nah seriously, we still had tribes with pretty loose organization some thousand years ago. Then 800 years ago some lovely people decided the pagans needed God and of course that meant God's order: feudalism.

[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

The hilarious irony is that Jesus was quite clear: the Law of Moses is eternal… therefore all the progressive christians have it wrong.

The whole “no you don’t have to get your dick chopped” thing comes from Paul… who directly contradicts Jesus on the matter.

Not even Paul said fuck all about slavery being wrong or women being actual people, and he had some very strong opinions on LGBTQ matters. (And Jesus was much worse.)

[-] XiELEd@piefed.social 3 points 3 weeks ago

Any religion or philosophy can be twisted for the interests of any state or group. Whether it be Abrahamic religion, Buddhism, Hinduism or State Atheism. I would blame the State more than any Religion itself. It seems very Western-centric to blame Christianity as if it's anything unique, because if any religion or philosophy had been dominant it would still be exploited by government. What you said that people say about Christianity are also said by people in various religions.

I am still not sure if religions themselves are to blame, or if it is their societies.

[-] save_the_humans@leminal.space 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Christianity marked a shift in how humanity thought of itself. The earth, nature, and all the animals were made for men, by the one true God, to use and take as they pleased. This line of thinking led to colonialism, slavery, and even capitalism and the patriarchy.

[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I'm going to have to see a big ol'source for that one. You're saying that's a Christian thing exclusively, and not found in any of the cultural or religious influences on Christianity? How could you even begin to draw that line? Even more, you're saying that, despite roughly fifteen hundred years of change, that was a core value that existed in the exact same way from the beginning of Christianity to European colonialism? Not even translations effected something so fundamental? Why would Christian patriarchy do this, but not Greek or Roman or Iranian? Why was it absent in Judaism but present here?

Even beyond that, you just subscribed to a normative construction of humanity and morality by asserting that capitalism emerged through this religion, and not that specific property relations and systems of power influenced how both are understood within our culture over time. For example, domination and objectification of the living world are certainly elements in this, but it's difficult to argue Christianity is why that's so and not that that was so, and Christianity exists as it does as a result of that.

Edit: I'm also just going to add that, though I'm sure this wasn't intentional, this also ends up carrying deeply colonial and white supremacist notions of superiority by attributing that much gravity to the one religion that EuroAmerican imperialists happened to subscribe to. They got to have the religion that was so foundational, so world-changing that it marked a break in the entirety of human self-perception? I get were saying capitalism is bad, but exceptionalizing it in this way reproduces narratives that white supremacists find favourable.

[-] save_the_humans@leminal.space 6 points 3 weeks ago

https://sceneonradio.org/s5-e1-in-the-beginning/

This podcast is where I first heard the argument. Coming out of Duke University, it's very well researched. You'd have to listen to seasons 5 and 6 to get the whole story. They cover nuances that my blanket statement doesn't.

[-] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Colonialism and capitalism absolutely.

I'd argue patriarchy and slavery already existed with other justifications though Christianity was used to entrench them further.

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[-] TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 weeks ago

Doesn't the book of Genesis come from Judaism?

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[-] thermal_shock@lemmy.world 46 points 3 weeks ago

Leviticus 19:33 and many others say the exact same thing.

Leviticus 19:33 commands, "When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Okay, but

Consider the work of Old Testament scholar James K. Hoffmeier, which has been embraced by the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization devoted to reducing immigration across the board.

...

In Hoffmeier’s view, the duty to not oppress “strangers” (“ger”) found in Leviticus 19:33 does not apply unless a person already has gained legal approval to be within a nation’s borders. That “legal status” had to be obtained “from the appropriate authority in that particular culture” or else he or she remained a “foreigner” (“nekhar” or “zar”).

The problem with Biblical (and Rabbinical) scholarship is that people argue over this shit extensively and ad nauseum. Hell, the Talmud is just an extended historical account of these arguments (often highly pedantic and endlessly nuanced, turning on interpretations of definitions of terms used in historical observations).

You can come at a modern policy argument waving the Bible and find a dozen other people from every side of the debate doing the same.

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[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Everyone knows modern Christians only care about the portions of Leviticus that confirm their hatred for gay people.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 34 points 3 weeks ago

Jesus was a pussy for caring about people.

  • MAGA
[-] Naive@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

I saw a post on Reddit saying that Jesus was not a pacifist.

[-] tetris11@feddit.uk 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It's the bible. There are parts of it where he probably isn't. That's the beauty of the bible. You just gotta find that one verse to pander your views

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[-] MBech@feddit.dk 5 points 3 weeks ago

Well he DID flip a table and whip a bunch of people this one time. That's not very pacifist of him.

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[-] PhoenixDog@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

MAGA literally thinks empathy is a negative human trait.

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[-] SnoopSqueak@lemmy.today 28 points 3 weeks ago

"Actual christianity."

Bruh, there was no actual christ. Can we please grow up?

The bible is literally unbelievable. It contradicts itself. Which gospel are we supposed to believe? Which version of Jesus? Or do we believe Paul, who claimed Jesus was lord yet altered his teachings?

Define "god" and demonstrate that any god exists. No one has been able to do this, which is why I remain an agnostic atheist. Meanwhile, we have more evidence every day that belief in god causes harm to people, which is why I remain antitheistic.

The god of the christian bible is one of the worst ever conceived. A petty, hateful abuser who demands complete subjugation. People call it "love" when god uses violent slaughter to get his way, such as flooding the entire world. "Don't worry, the good people went to heaven. That's better than being alive." It's a death cult.

[-] redditStinksSuperBad@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

I always just call christianity a fandom and the bible "a sci-fi" novel. I'm somewhat convinced that "religions" are just fandoms from thousands of years ago. In 2000 years I would not be surprised to see "Jedi" as a top "religion" (it's already nearly 1% of all brits in the uk).

[-] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 5 points 3 weeks ago

It's a death cult, in which some of its foundational tenets include torture, human sacrifice, cannibalism, vampirism, and zombies, AND their logo is literally their founder in agony on an ancient torture device.

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[-] pomfegranate@sh.itjust.works 13 points 3 weeks ago

Priest going on a rant during mass? Unheard of! Why can't they just sit down and do their job XD

[-] BillyClark@piefed.social 12 points 3 weeks ago

Since they said "mass" and "priest", I'm guessing they're talking about a catholic church. I have been to a lot of catholic masses, and if my experience is anything like other people's experience, catholic priests seem to actively avoid political statements in their sermons. I'm sure political priests are out there, but I've been to a lot of different catholic churches all over america as a kid, and I never heard a political sermon.

Almost always, sermons are either about the specific bible passages for that day, or they're a story that the priest heard, or they're about a moral dilemma that the priest observed somewhere or made up, or they want you to donate money to something, and so the sermon is about how good that thing is or will be.

It wasn't until recently, when I was forced to watch some catholic masses on the internet, that I ever remember seeing any political sermons. And they were from a priest I think called Chris Alar, who also said that his family all advised him not to become a priest. When he told that story, I think he was implying that his family all thought he was far too stupid to get people to listen to him. But anyways, he talks a lot about politics and even argues with YouTube comments to his previous sermons during his sermon. He truly comes off like a pompous idiot, at least to me.

I finally got my mother to watch the priest I think called Mike Schmidt instead, who seems to give the typical catholic sermons that I grew up with.

Sorry for the detour, but my point is that I suspect the odds are good that this priest didn't actually say "ICE." He probably just talked about treating immigrants in the way that the Bible tells you to. I think it's this thing with bigots that when they hear somebody talking about bigotry in general, they somehow hear it like they were mentioned by name.

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[-] QueenHawlSera@piefed.social 10 points 3 weeks ago

I've heard of churches that have been asked to stop doing the Sermon on the Mount due to concerns that it's "woke"

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[-] bitteroldcoot@piefed.social 9 points 3 weeks ago

Obvious point here. If you are saying "mass" and 'Church" and "priest". Then you are in a religion with a central governing body that probably insists you don't beat people down and shoot them.

Not sure he's going to be happy just switching buildings.

[-] SnoopSqueak@lemmy.today 5 points 3 weeks ago

As always, anyone can interpret the bible any way, and there is no way to verify which is correct.

So we get catholics like this:

"Despite what some Church leaders in America have indicated, a faithful Catholic can support strong and humane immigration law enforcement — by means such as physical barriers, detention and deportation — without violating the teaching of the Church," the report states.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/exclusive-catholic-bishops-chided-sowing-confusion-deportations-stance

And this:

“Political leaders should stop stirring up resentment against officers who are endeavoring to enforce the laws of the country,” he continued. “And protestors should cease interfering with the work of ICE.”

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2026/01/19/bishop-barron-says-ice-should-focus-on-serious-criminals-urges-protesters-to-cease-interfering/

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[-] DandomRude@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

This is obviously the strategy of the MAGA crowd and all their allies: Take existing things, make them your own, strip away everything meaningful, humane, productive or entertaining about them, and replace it with inhuman cruelty.

There’s nothing remarkable or new about this; it’s simply proof that, despite all the possibilities available to humanity today, we’re still unable to shed our most primitive instincts. Nothing fundamental has changed just because people carry the knowledge of generations in their pockets: it’s just as archaic as it was hundreds of years ago.

It’s almost remarkable just how incorrigibly obtuse the masses are.

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[-] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 3 weeks ago

Sounds like a win/win

[-] Master@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

If you have to qualify it then you are the qualifier and not the other thing.

Maga christian... Youre just maga. Conservative christian... You are just conservative. Liberal christian... Just liberal.

If you are christian then be christian ahead of all other qualifiers. Pretty sure that's even in the ten condiments right before mustard but after ketchup and mayo.

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[-] M0oP0o@mander.xyz 5 points 3 weeks ago

Guess its all just mega churches and scams left for them.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Plenty of the rural red state churches and strip mall wanna-be fire and brimstone pastors left.

Megas get all the press. But plenty of them just play to the crowd and are just as happy to go hard in the paint for a Hillary or Newsom or Obama as a Bush or Trump.

Hell, some of the most deranged criticisms of Trump (he's the antichrist, he's possessed by a devil, he's a skin walker / lizard person / hologram / secret Communist) came from Cruz/DeSantis allies during the primaries.

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[-] BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

Evangelical is the preferred nomenclature

[-] lemmygarden@lemmy.today 4 points 3 weeks ago

The Bible and Jesus have some good lessons in it (some archaic lessons too)

But fuck whatever America's version of Christianity is is mean spirited and cruel and intolerant. Jesus would be disappointed to put it mildly.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

America’s version of Christianity is is mean spirited and cruel and intolerant

The Settler Movement is all of these things. But religion is as often a source of opposition as support. The earliest abolitionists were devote Quakers. The earliest anti-war activists were Catholics. The earliest socialists and Communists were Jews.

Nothing about American religion pre-supposes public policy. More often than not, it is the policy that shapes the religion.

[-] Alwaysnownevernotme@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

They're starting to setup digital fences around churches to target ads to gullible imbiciles.

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this post was submitted on 07 Sep 2026
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