Honestly the only real problem that's holding me back from using Matrix for everything is that it's really inconvenient (for non technical people) to set up an additional device, as you have to verify it.
I've had to walk too many people through this.
Interesting, how does that verification process work? I've never really used matrix so I'm curious.
It's really not difficult at all, best case you scan a fucking QR code, otherwise the fallback is just that you verify that the emojis shown on both devices are the same.
Takes 5 seconds..
(Sorry about the length, I'm rather passionate about this. The second half can be ignored)
Essentially, the key to decrypt your old messages is tied to your session. On your (presumably) first session, you can get a recovery key, which is a long hexadecimal string, and a recovery passphrase which you can decide yourself.
If you start a new session (i.e., you log in on another client), for your opd messages to be visible on the new one and your new messages on the ols one, you need to "verify" the new session. There are three ways you can do this.
Alternatively, if you forgot your key and your passphrase and logged out on all the other sessions, you can reset your recovery key, creating a new one and making your old messages unreadable.
(The following are just my thoughts on this) The recovery key is a PITA because most non-technical people I know don't use password managers. Even if they did, though, it's not like any password manager (afaik) offers to save your recovery key. You need to manually put it in there, separate from your account password, and manually enter it when you're connecting a new client.
The recovery passphrase somewhat mitigates this, as they could simply use their favourite "use it everywhere" password, but I don't think I need to point out the problems with that.
The emoji thing is cute and works quite well, but somehow people still get confused and justifiably vaguely irritated that they have to do it at all.
You just can't expect normal people to understand that these are important security measures, they just want to log in and be done.
That said, most people log in once on their phone, very maybe twice to also have it on their laptop and then never have to think about it again. That, however, is a problem in and of itself, because at some point they'll get a new phone, chuck the old one, try to log in and realize they have no idea what their key is.
Edit: thx for the detailed response :)
What would be your ideal login process then? Every E2E Messenger I know (even WhatsApp) does similar things. (New Session -> QR Code, Lost device -> Restore Backup or Reset key)
I would be very happy with a WhatsApp-esque 'scan this QR code and be done'
There is a QR login feature in the Matrix spec, but far from every client/server supports it. IIRC it works in reverse, where the logged-in session shows the QR code. I'm actually in favor of this choice, as it means the user shouldn't need to specify the homeserver address on the new client. I believe this doesn't transfer your private key, though, meaning you would still have to enter your recovery key, recovery passphrase or go through the emoji thing. I could be wrong about any of this, it's been a long time since I've last tried the QR login.
To me it feels like there's a lot more friction than with WhatsApp or Signal, but to be frankly honest, I don't really know how to solve the problem either.
Same, I have a discord community and it is been impossible to get people to move to Matrix or anything else. The one person who really tried ended up messing up their encryption keys and gave up.
Exactly!! This really needs to change.
Security is important, of course, but it's not like vodozemac is that good anyway...
I've just telling my normie friends who join to disable end to end encryption. If they're on my homeserver it doesn't matter, as we're all communicating internally, and if their account is on m.org... Well... Just mind what you say? No different than chatting on Discord or WhatsApp, IMO.
People get annoyed about the setting up of devices, but that's literally tied to a new type of feature you probably don't need. And e2e shouldn't be by default for most people who can't even remember passwords - I still remember losing all my signal messages because I didn't backup my recovery key and my one phone with it installed decided to, helpfully, clear out my data :)
Tl;DR being unintentionally forced to engage in e2ee is always going to be a bad experience. Our non-technical friends are coming from platforms without it, just forego it for the time being. (yes, I don't care if WhatsApp or whatever claim to have it, if they own your keys it ain't e2ee)
I disagree. In an age of such intensely pervasive spying, I think it's only prudent to use encryption wherever possible. I think in the next decade or two, we're going to start seeing the full implications of all the spying and data harvesting, especially with fascism rising in so many places. Just because your host and the country they operate in are trustworthy today doesn't mean that can't change and make your logs worth monitoring.
The person I was responding to was basically complaining about the complexity of enabling and working with crypto for non technical folk.
It's always going to be hard if you're trying to move people to a new platform and teach them e2ee best practices. .
If you disagree, then that means you've had more success with convincing your non technical friends and family to verify devices, e2ee passwords, and back them up! Great.
But for those who can't seem to do so, seeing as how their friends and family are already offering up their data to the highest bidder by default, bringing them over to a homeserver you own and manage - without the use of e2ee locally - is absolutely a step up compared the alternative of just giving it all to WhatsApp.
I think a messaging server should store messages only until they are delivered. It shouldn't have access to who sent it, only where they are going.
Matrix keeps a massive stack of metadata on the server, because the server takes care of the protocol and it needs all that metadata.
However you can't loose data you never aggregated.
Matrix can be configured to clear logs and history on whatver basis you want it to. XMPP is a bit better by default but its not like you can't log messages on a regular basis from any platform. Its up to server operators to set things up securely.
How would the recipient know who the message was from if that data wasn't in the packet?
Signal dies something called sealed Sender. The idea is, the sender information is encrypted in the package. https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/
Oh neat!
Appreciate the discussion. I really wish they'd prioritize UX.
Taking that sweet money from police and armed forces
ugh matrix sucks and I wish it wasn't the preferred form of communication for everyone on fedi.
once fluxxer gets federation I'm gonna be done with matrix forever.
Personally I'd prefer XMPP. They way it caches data between instances is way less bloated
Once fluxer gets e2ee and federation and better docs and adoption and professional support and a mature org behind it. Then it can be just like Matrix 😂
I don't need something "just like Matrix". E2EE in Matrix sucks and we had to remake several rooms on the FAF Matrix because a bunch of people couldn't read anything. I need something that actually works most of the time and doesn't have constant and myriad problems. the fact that most of fedi uses Matrix is even more regrettable considering the plethora of mature alternatives that work well and are stable.
Its just Matrix and XMPP at the moment for all of those features, right?
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