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Now the climate crisis is self-evident, a common argument by those who STILL defend polluters is that “NZ is too small to make a difference, and so shouldn’t have to stop intensive dairy farming or driving Ford rangers to school in Auckland”
Rod Carr destroys it in this mic-drop moment.
It's amazing this argument still gets trotted out, but in a way kinda not because it serves a purpose. It's an excuse to do nothing, or if we're being charitable a coping mechanism, to avoid confronting the reality of a very bleak future if we don't act.
I think Rod's point lands particulary well because it balances the urgency of the crisis with a bit of hope that small countries can act and can make a difference.
Well yes.
More than that it's too late now to do anything anyway. We are not going to be able to prevent catastrophic climate change and there is a very real chance we are going to go through a world wide age of suffering and pain for most humans on this planet towards the end of my life span. Luckily I will be dead by the time civilisation collapses but chances are nobody will be able to take care of me in my old age and my end is not going to be pleasant.
I disagree. I don't think .1 degree matters and I don't think there is anything we can do to cool the earth by .1 degree or even prevent another .1 degree rise.
It's truly too late. Even we got to carbon zero tomorrow the carbon in the atmosphere right now is going to have devastating impact for years to come.
Our only hope is that we somehow missed a feedback mechanism and it kicks in.
The IPCC has been drastically underestimating the rates and magnitude of climate change in all of their forecasts. It’s clear they are putting politics and PR above science in order not to panic the population.
I just don’t trust them to represent the actual science in the matter.
This has nothing to do with trust. They put out forecasts and we know with 100% certainty that all of their forecasts underestimated how much warming there was going to be and how fast.
Why would you give them your blind trust after such a performance?
Do you really believe they were wrong in all of their previous forecasts but now they are right?
And to counter your disgusting accusation that I am anti science:
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is an intergovernmental body of the United Nations. It's not "the climate scientists". It's a political body and it's obvious that it's white washing what their scientists are telling them and bowing to political pressure.
So fuck off with your insult and calling me a science denier.
Where is the scientific evidence that says it’s too late and there’s nothing we can do?
The collection of studies which show that all the predictions of the IPCC so far have underestimated both the magnitude and the velocity of climate change.
But it’s a huge jump from “things are worse than we thought” to “things are hopeless, there’s nothing we can do”.
It's not a huge jump.
Have you seen this?
https://www.axios.com/2023/05/01/ocean-temperature-spike-climate
If we bring emissions down to near zero by around 2050, things will be way better than they could be.
What makes you think that's even possible. There has not been one year in the entire history of mankind where global carbon emissions were less than the previous year. How do you think we will get to zero.
First, that parts not true. Emissions in 2020 dropped around 7%. It was largely due to COVID lockdowns, but still shows it’s possible.
Did the global emissions drop or did the rate of increase drop?
And what makes you think that because something has never been done before it can’t be done now?
Because the mechanisms that caused the problem are still in place and you aren't going to upend capitalism anytime soon.
he people with the money (e.g. fossil fuel giants) would absolutely love for us to do nothing, because they’ll be able to keep raking it in.
No they want you to do stuff and take responsibility so they don't have to. There is a reason you think the burden is on you and me instead of the corporations and the governments.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co-emissions-by-region?time=2010..latest
Here, I zoomed the chart out a bit so you can get the real picture
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co-emissions-by-region?time=1980..latest
I am glad for you that you can be 100% confident about what will happen in the future!
Yes I am 100% confident that we will not upend capitalism just like you are 100% confident the world will not emit any CO2 by 2050.
We’ve been discussing whether society as a whole can do anything about climate change, and you’ve been arguing that there’s absolutely nothing we can do.
You can do whatever you want. It won't undo the damage and it won't help.
"we are one of the richest nations in the world"
It doesn't feel like that to me.
If climate change is real, and it's caused by cow farts and 1300cc cars being driven 3 times a week, how come the government won't build affordable apartments, that way we can make better use of walking, cycling and public transport? I own a bike but I can't ride it, because my landlord doesn't let me store it anywhere. If I want a place that has a shed, I'll have to pay an extra $150 a week or more.
It's incredibly stupid that some countries will ban petrol cars by 2030, when Mazda 2 and Toyota Corolla use almost no fuel. I don't drive very often so I re-fuel every 3-4 weeks LOL
Where will the farmers work instead, if dairy farms are shut down by the government? Will farmers move into the city, live in a prison-size bedroom, in a boarding house with a dozen indians, and stack shelves at Countdown at 3am? Somehow I don't think the dairy farmers will like that.
The climate change agenda is supposed to get us cycling and catching the bus more, and living in higher density apartments, near to our workplace. But when was the last time anyone saw an apartment go up in Christchurch? Only in the CBD or nearby areas. If I live anywhere else, I must drive a 10 year old ICE car, because landlords don't provide a garage for an EV, and employers expect me to have reliable transport. I suppose I should just buy an EV that costs 3x more than a regular car, and then pay one of the other tenants to have the cable hang out of their window to reach my car? Fat chance.
How about we start local manufacturing and stop importing from China? What about a restriction on how many migrant workers can fly here on a co2 emitting plane? We could cut international flights by 20% and half the amount of work and study visas being approved. That's another way to cut our carbon emissions. Stop globalisation, stop having so many flights and stop the import of foreign products. At least reduce it.
Climate change policy just means we'll have more poverty, less taxes being paid and a worse society over-all. We won't get the utopia that the greens are promising. Show me 6 storey apartments on Riccarton Road, that have EV charge parks at no additional cost, and bike storage at no additional cost (must have power, lighting and protection from rain at all angles so my bike chain doesn't rust). If they can't do this, then I'm against "climate action" because it's a threat to my meagre existence. I live just above the poverty line and people like Rod Carr obviously have millions of dollars, so they don't even know what it's like to be part of the working poor.
Did I miss this copypasta? I've never seen so many straw man arguments presented at once
What makes you think we can manufacture everything or even most things we need let alone more efficiently than china?
You realise that we don't have the natural resources to manufacture shit right? That all the raw materials and fuel will need to be imported.
Measuring climate change impact per captia is a ccp talking point and I cringe every time I see it mentioned. Population size does not give you the right to pollute more. The biggest polluters need to make changes immediately.
If you want to reduce our per captia carbon emissions bring another 5million people into the country. The value our farmers bring to the world far offsets the carbon output. We should do our best to reduce emissions where possible but forcing reduction in output does more harm than good.
Not exactly sure what you mean by “forcing reduction in output”, but if you mean consuming less, then yes we will need to do that. Climate change will not be fixed with tinkering around the edges. It needs transformational action.
I've been waiting 6 years for transformational action from Labour, I still can't get a good rental property for a fair price. No bike shed, constant changes to car parking arrangements with other tenants, just a disaster. They talk about climate change but they don't seem to believe in it. Where is the dense housing, where is the walkable city? I still need a car to get to the laundromat.
Exactly what value do NZ farmers bring to the world?
If you are talking Dairy, most of their production is exported and consumed as luxury food - if it disappeared tomorrow, the world would not suffer!? (~3 percent of the world's milk solids) Dairy is one of the most inefficient ways to produce "food". We could do much better producing plant based food for export.
Considering the damage to our waterways, the environment in general, and Climate Change - there is NO value in that.
Per Capita is the correct measure to use in my, and many others' opinion - there is no other fairer way to attribute the effects.
Bringing in another 5 million people into the country would see our Carbon Emissions rise... Removing a good portion of 5 million dairy cows would see a rapid and significant reduction!
Population size does not give you the right to pollute more
Exactly. The fact that there are only five million people within our national boundaries doesn't mean we should just be able to pollute more.
If that's the case, any group of 5 million people can say they're only zero point whatever percent of emissions so they shouldn't have to do anything.
All that achieves is everyone pointing at everyone else being the problem and nothing gets done. The planet burns and the oceans boil